Russian rouble of 1738 (Anna)...

[bobh]

It's probably supposed to be Bitkin 233/1.2 / Uzdenikov 0735, although Uzdenikov doesn't mention the variety with the dot after MOHETA. There are several things which make me believe this is a fake, none of which have anything to do with the eBay seller. It would be interesting to see what others will come up with.

 

Here's the L I N K ...

 

[grivna1726]

Here is the suspect coin:

 

Here is GM-207 (Plate 13, coin 2):

 

Here is the description of GM-207:

 

I would hesitate to declare any coin authentic based on a scan, but I'm not sure I see anything that condemns this one. It looks slightly porous, which might be from casting or just from age.

 

What do you see that raises suspicion?

[bobh]

Thanks for these scans for everyone to see. It really helps!

 

(1) The large crown is positioned too high and the small crowns are too small in the auction pictures;

 

(2) The tip of the sceptre on the left in the reverse, which is held by the eagle, ends at a different place relative to the "soft sign" (Cyrillic letter "ь", or "мягкий знак");

 

(3) The dot is too far away from the "A" in the auction pictures;

 

(4) The globe seems too high in the auction pictures, and the wing tips of the eagle look different on that side, too.

 

(5) The shape of some of the letters on the obverse legend is different -- e.g., the next to last letter ("A") in "ВСЕРОСИСКАЯ" is wider in the auction coin than in the other pictures;

 

(6) Anna seems to be gazing upwards into a higher place in the auction coin than in the other pictures, where she seems to be gazing straight ahead approx. to the dot right before "ВСЕРОСИСКАЯ";

 

(7) There are subtle differences in the drapery on Anna's dress which don't seem to be attributable to wear, e.g. the crease on the shoulder starting at the far left (from the viewer's standpoint) is missing in the auction picture.

 

Is that enough?

[gxseries]

I am hesisting on this one as well. Perhaps there is two critical points that you did not take into account that is

 

1) Planchets & striking methods during that era are usually crude, which might reflect different angles during a scan.

2) There are crazy numbers of varieties existing of my Anna ruble and I personally did not know the existance of mine until Grivna gave me a scan of his catalogue. In fact, there are still MORE discoveries to be made! Perhaps that is one of the minor reasons why Russian coins prices are going at an insane rate as there might be a possibility that one might find something rare? Uzedenikov, while is good in generic coins, his catalogue is terrible when it comes down to varieties.

 

Perhaps this might be similar to the coin here?

http://molotok.ru/catalog/view_item.php?id_sell=10957504

 

Or maybe this one?

 

http://molotok.ru/catalog/lot/11157880

[grivna1726]

Thanks for these scans for everyone to see. It really helps!

 

(1) The large crown is positioned too high and the small crowns are too small in the auction pictures;

 

(2) The tip of the sceptre on the left in the reverse, which is held by the eagle, ends at a different place relative to the "soft sign" (Cyrillic letter "ь", or "мягкий знак");

 

(3) The dot is too far away from the "A" in the auction pictures;

 

(4) The globe seems too high in the auction pictures, and the wing tips of the eagle look different on that side, too.

 

(5) The shape of some of the letters on the obverse legend is different -- e.g., the next to last letter ("A") in "ВСЕРОСИСКАЯ" is wider in the auction coin than in the other pictures;

 

(6) Anna seems to be gazing upwards into a higher place in the auction coin than in the other pictures, where she seems to be gazing straight ahead approx. to the dot right before "ВСЕРОСИСКАЯ";

 

(7) There are subtle differences in the drapery on Anna's dress which don't seem to be attributable to wear, e.g. the crease on the shoulder starting at the far left (from the viewer's standpoint) is missing in the auction picture.

 

Is that enough?

 

 

The differences you describe are present, but could be variants resulting from the use of manual, rather than mechanical, engraving of dies. In this period, there are so many variants that the challenge is to find 2 coins from the same set of dies.

 

Certainly there are counterfeits of Russian coins and the skill of coin forgers has increased in recent years (especially in ancient coins) to the point that they are becoming very difficult to detect. The fake of the Nicholas II gold coin (with the wrong edge legend) that was posted here recently is a case in point.

 

This coin might be bad, as you suggest. However, if it is a counterfeit, the forger is much more talented in his production than most of what shows up on ebay (which some collectors now call "efake").

[LostDutchman]

that coin shows wear patterns that would be consistant with an authentic peice. I have noticed that artifical wear is just something that the counterfeiters haven't been able to get exactily right. I belive the porous looks is just the planchet we all know that the planchets then were not pure in their composition and has a lot of "other" stuff in them. That could cause that you are seeing.

[bobh]

Perhaps this might be similar to the coin here?

http://molotok.ru/catalog/view_item.php?id_sell=10957504

 

Or maybe this one?

 

http://molotok.ru/catalog/lot/11157880

The first link shows an entirely different obverse than either the Bitkin picture or the auction coin.

 

The second has the same obverse as the auction, but the reverse looks exactly like the Bitkin reverse.

 

I'm still not sure -- maybe I'll just let this one go. After all, 1738 isn't supposed to be that rare, and I don't generally collect this era. I'm still working on Nicholas II poltinas. So far, I have all from 1895-1902 (except 1898), and all from 1910 to 1914. The latter run is all AU or better (including two 1913-ЭБ, one of which is AU with a rim ding and the other only choice VF, bought just a couple of weeks ago from Alexander Basov). These and some gold coins of that period (all the 5 rouble coins up through 1904, and most of the 10 rouble coins except for the "quiet years" from 1905-1910).

[bobh]

The auction has ended ... EUR 158 was the winning bid.

[grivna1726]

The auction has ended ... EUR 158 was the winning bid.

 

Sounds like a reasonable result to me. The later portraits of Anna such as this one are the most artistically pleasing designs used on her coins (in my opinion).

[bobh]

Certainly there are counterfeits of Russian coins and the skill of coin forgers has increased in recent years (especially in ancient coins) to the point that they are becoming very difficult to detect.  The fake of the Nicholas II gold coin (with the wrong edge legend) that was posted here recently is a case in point.

Indeed. I still wonder what is going to happen to that one next after I sent it back to the dealer? To his credit, I was offered a quick and total refund for that coin. Of course, gold is on the advance these days ... I won't be surprised if it shows up again sometime after gold has hit $800 an ounce (it will, believe me ... and sooner than anyone would think).

 

I'm still having trouble with the 1899 gold 10 rouble coins -- the most common of all. The last one I bought on eBay got stolen in the mail! Although I paid €10 for shipping and insurance from Germany to Switzerland, the seller sent it by normal registered mail (costs €4,50) -- which IS insured, but only up to a total value of €25 (coin was bought at the "Buy it Now" price of €160,-). The Swiss Postal Authorities gave me compensation of CHF 150, or about €100, but PayPal buyer protection was not much help (actually, none at all).

 

So if I can find the three 1899 mintmaster varieties and 1901-ФЗ, then I will have all from 1899-1904, and I also have 1911 (yes, I already have 1901-AP ... one of the first 10 rouble coins I bought -- talk about luck!). The rest will be hard to come by, indeed.

[grivna1726]

If the dealer is honest, the fake will be made into jewelry or else melted.

 

Which reference(s) are you using to collect Nicholas II gold?

[bobh]

Which reference(s) are you using to collect Nicholas II gold?

I have the standard works by Uzdenikov, Rylov/Sobolin, and Severin. However, the one I like best is an excellent new book by V.V. Kazakov dedicated exclusively to the coins of Nicholas II with a lot of varieties not mentioned in the other references. The pictures are all in color on glossy paper, and they are stunningly beautiful. I believe the same photographer(s) took the pictures that do the auction photos for "Монеты и медали".

 

I also try to consult auction catalogs as much as possible. Dmitri Markov has a lot of his catalogs posted on his website as PDF files. The pictures are professionally done and quite beautiful. Unfortunately, not all of his catalogs are for free. But if you keep up with the most current auctions, these can usually be downloaded, either there or on this other site. And I have catalogs of the Heifetz sale and the Irving Goodman sale (the pictures are lousy, though).

 

One can never have enough references! If I ever seriously start collecting anything as old as Anna roubles, I'll get Tolstoy/Ilyin as well.

 

BTW, in a recent exchange over on the RCC newsgroup about the Anna rouble we were discussing, R.W. Julian mentioned a book by E.G. Poluiko which covers the varieties of Anna's roubles. Does anyone here know if it is in print, and what the title is? It apparently lists over 800 varieties of the Anna roubles between 1730-1740!

[grivna1726]

BTW, in a recent exchange over on the RCC newsgroup about the Anna rouble we were discussing, R.W. Julian mentioned a book by E.G. Poluiko which covers the varieties of Anna's roubles. Does anyone here know if it is in print, and what the title is? It apparently lists over 800 varieties of the Anna roubles between 1730-1740!

 

I am not familiar with this book, although the name Poliuko seems vaguely familiar, as if I have seen it somewhere before. I have no information on it. Maybe Julian can provide some information? Maybe it's a reference printed before 1917?

[bobh]

I am not familiar with this book, although the name Poliuko seems vaguely familiar, as if I have seen it somewhere before.  I have no information on it.  Maybe Julian can provide some information?  Maybe it's a reference printed before 1917?

He didn't have any details, either, since he doesn't have that book. If anyone can help, I'll make sure he gets the information, too.

[gxseries]

Poliuko seems to be the expert on Anna rubles. While Anna rubles were minted from 1730-1740, it does seem to be that there are some insane 600+, probably can be as high as 800 different varieties in those short 10 years

 

Poliuko's book on Anna ruble was printed back during the years of the Soviet Union in 1989. I got a scan by a good Russian friend on the other forum and will not mind sending it, but that is if you don't mind if the text is completely in Russian. Even I am struggling to find out what it all means.

[bobh]

I got a scan by a good Russian friend on the other forum and will not mind sending it, but that is if you don't mind if the text is completely in Russian. Even I am struggling to find out what it all means.

I can read Russian fairly well, and since most of these books are lists of coin types with pictures, and some introductory text, I will take the gamble! Do you have it on CD? We should continue this in private e-mail:

 

r h a i r g r o v e (AT) b i g f o o t (DOT) c o m

 

(remove the spaces, etc.)