banivechi Posted August 16, 2006 Report Share Posted August 16, 2006 Personally I am suspicious too... from mathematic reasons. At an average of 4 2 Para coins to one Para-3 Dengi issued, accepting the total of 3,000,000 roubles, that means 50 Mln coins of Para-3Dengi and 120 Mln coins of 2Para-3Kopeks. struck in 1000 days. 170.000 coins/day! Or 3 tons of bronze/day.Without electrical power, and in a small mint hided in Bukowina's forest! I think the modern mint of Romania cannot struck this quantity today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted August 16, 2006 Report Share Posted August 16, 2006 I think we should accept the Uzdenikov's mintages. I think Gartenberg made out OK bu just not paying the Russians the 20,000 he owed when he ran away. Also, I have a crazy suspicion that the 40,000 he paid out of 60,000 he owed was paid in moldavia-walachia bronze copper that he was minting himself. The accounting was very convoluted, which major Rimsky-Korsakov himself admits. First, the minting privilege, then the salt concession, finally casting cannons. Then Gartenberg was settling for salt consession with those cannons, then he paid a sum of money in moldavia-walachia coin for something, presumably salt concession. However, because he settled that with cannon, that payment can be attributed to coin minting privilege. Then, the war was over and neither coin nor cannon was to be accepted from Gartenberg, at which point he ran away. He was just too busy stealing from the Russians to have the time to mint 3,000,000 roubles of coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted August 16, 2006 Report Share Posted August 16, 2006 In fact Russians don't lost too much. They imposed to local population these coins but they did not accept as tax payments anything else than silver or gold coins. After 1774 the population awaked with a bunch of worthless coins, and with most of precious metal gone (and the products too). A la guerre comme a la guerre... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted August 16, 2006 Report Share Posted August 16, 2006 RE: "A la guerre comme a la guerre..." well, war is viewed as a money making enterprise even today... And, you are right about the precious metals and stuff. Russians fought the Turks, but the native population of the region suffered the most as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted August 16, 2006 Report Share Posted August 16, 2006 the native population of the region suffered the most as usual. That was the destiny of small populations encountered by big empires. History is full of examples around the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted August 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 The figure 3 million rubles worth is just not possible. Imagine, if the figure 21.6roubles is granted for 1 pood of copper, if you take 3 million divide by 21.6, it would be 138,888 pood, which is a crazy figure if you take an account that 1 pood is some 16.38 kilos! Doable? Unlikely during that time! While Uzedenikov figures seem to be right, I'm not too sure if you can use grade as an example to show how rare these coins are. This is an example of excellent Sadagura coins sold in the past. Sure they are extremely difficult to find in XF+ but there are such examples. http://romaniancoins.ancients.info/gentlew...ra/sadagura.htm Now putting all those aside, what I am more concerned is, what happened in 1795. If you noticed, Moscow mint seemed to have taken a batch of such coins and overstruck them and current data suggest that these overstruck coins are NOT common either. Why? Did Moscow mint plan on restriking the whole batch but found that they were too difficult to restruck because of the metal hardness and decided to melt them all down instead? If it really did happen, it will skew current known infomation of how rare these coins could possibly be. What is amusing is how long it seem to have taken these coins to the Moscow mint. Taking the example of the 1762 10 kopeks coins, you still can find examples of 1788 MM 5 kopeks. But the key point is, why 20 odd years later? The same applies to the Sadagura coinages. Does it take 20 years from an area to send all the way to Moscow mint? Probably it would have if it was sent by the ye olde buggy ride, but 20 years? It would be interesting if we knew how many were sent off to Moscow. Why overstrike Sadagara coinages instead of Siberian coinages? I guess I spawned more questions instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 Now putting all those aside, what I am more concerned is, what happened in 1795. If you noticed, Moscow mint seemed to have taken a batch of such coins and overstruck them and current data suggest that these overstruck coins are NOT common either. Why? Did Moscow mint plan on restriking the whole batch but found that they were too difficult to restruck because of the metal hardness and decided to melt them all down instead? If it really did happen, it will skew current known infomation of how rare these coins could possibly be. George Buzdugan gives a date of 19th June 1788 for the order of Moskow's Department to overstruck Sadagura coins Para-3Dengi 1772 and 2para-3kopeks. So the 20 years are reduced to 7... (see the link "Buzdugan 5" from the one of my posts above) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted August 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 George Buzdugan gives a date of 19th June 1788 for the order of Moskow's Department to overstruck Sadagura coins Para-3Dengi 1772 and 2para-3kopeks. So the 20 years are reduced to 7... (see the link "Buzdugan 5" from the one of my posts above) Ah now that is a more sensible figure It must have been ordered while Moscow mint was still busy overstriking the remaining 1762 10 kopeks. 7 years to send an order there and get the coins from there may realistic. But does George Buzdugan mention how many coins were sent? I personally don't think it's realistic that a small batch was sent for overstriking... what do others think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 But does George Buzdugan mention how many coins were sent? I personally don't think it's realistic that a small batch was sent for overstriking... what do others think? No. It says only that "some quantities" of these coins penetrate in Rusian empire despite to all punishments imposed to traders, so in 1788 apears that decision to collect them and to overstrike. But it says that these overstrikes are extra rares. Personally I did not see yet one in Romania. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted August 17, 2006 Report Share Posted August 17, 2006 This has to be the thread of the week interests and knowledge wise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted August 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 Here is an image of the edge I was talking about. The edge is at the very last: http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/7964/rusedgescj6.jpg (warning: 200k) Most of the Russian copper coins at that time were milled or netted. As of why new collars were made, I don't know why, but I assumed it would have been a lot easier if they were milled. Banivechi, do you have excellent examples of such edges? I personally would love to investigate this topic but am on tight budget As of what happened to the dies and collars, I was assuming that they might have been sent to the Moscow mint together with the batch of coins for overstriking. But what made me wonder is the lack of novodels (except 1771). Puzzling coinage I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 Banivechi, do you have excellent examples of such edges? I will try afternoon to make some photos, but it is for the firs time when I use the macro function on my camera... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted August 18, 2006 Report Share Posted August 18, 2006 I've played with my camera today... First picture is the edge of an 2 para-3 kopeks 1773 And below is the edge of 5 kop 1771S Novodel Maybe the quality of pictures is not the best, but these are my first pictures in macro mode... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 Very interesting!!!! The original "novodel" should have either plain edge or the edge #8 (hand punched in circles with dot inside) Same edge was used on some novodel 1728 kopeks. No novodel with an edge #5 or a similar edge should exist. Can you provide pictures of averse and reverse of your 5 kop 1771 novodel? Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted August 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 Now you know why I am very persistant when it comes down to edging Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 Hm, maybe it is an edge from an Moscow garage mint? I've bougt it from Belgium as "Novodel"... but it seems like an "private" novodel... And it's weight is suspect: 3 grams more than a normal coin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 Look, I do not want to be hasty with conclusions before I see the photographs of the coin. However, if I assume correctly that it is the same coin that pictured on your web page, than it is sadly a fake. Judging from the edge it is a modern forgery probably struck on a 5 kop piece. There is no such thing as private "novodels" A true novodel comes from an official mint, although is struck after the date indicated on the coin. The mint also does not have to be the original mint that struck the original prototype. The last novodel that I know sold proivately. It was ex. Klingert (etc.) and sold for over $8,000. Sorry for the bad news. But I am sure you must have suspected something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 Hm, maybe it is an edge from an Moscow garage mint? I've bougt it from Belgium as "Novodel"... but it seems like an "private" novodel... And it's weight is suspect: 3 grams more than a normal coin... Was this an ebay purchase? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 This was not so expensive and at the time when I bought it - 4 years ago - I was newbie into Sadagura coins. And... until I will save enough money to buy a genuine one, this fake will remain in my collection as a curiosity and an example how a bad start can be a foundation of a good collection. Live goes forward... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 Was this an ebay purchase? Yes, my first ebay purchase, if I remember correctly. Must check my history on ebay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 Again I am sorry to break that crappy news to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 Again I am sorry to break that crappy news to you. It's no fun to get such news or to deliver it. I'm sorry that this happened to you, banivechi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted August 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 Nah, it's not only Banivechi who gets hurt with counterfeits. I too got hit hard in the past, but that was a Siberian coin, when I was not too good in identifying what is a counterfeit and genuine one. But fortunately the rest I knew what I was buying and that included the two counterfeit Borodino rubles and Gangut ruble. I think Banivechi pretty much made up with the rest of his other Sadagura coins that he got. I think the edge itself is just a fasinating preservation of such difficult coinage series to obtain. I know I got to spend years to look for one excellent one like his Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 I'm healthy, so I'm happy! We have a word here: everybody learns on his own skin... Maybe the "coin" will be the prize for my next contest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted August 19, 2006 Report Share Posted August 19, 2006 I know I got to spend years to look for one excellent one like his One like my fake??? Oh, no, it's not so hard: check often the "Contests and giveaways" thread... But must wait until I will go back in Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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