Sadagura coinages

[gxseries]

One of the difficult coinages to get hold, especially if you are looking to get them in XF.

 

More details could be read at Banivechi's site: Link

 

I recently got hold of one, which is the 2para-3kopeks, but I admit I must have been terribly disappointed as I was kind of expecting pretty edging design, as described in the Uzedenikov catalogue. I guess I have to be looking for a XF+ to see the full beauty of it.

 

 

As well as, I wasn't too happy that I could not read the year - and hence the clean...

 

 

Fortunately the year was visible after some play around with the color contrast.

 

I found a link which shows a list of better Sadagura coinages sold in the past. I admit, if those are found in those grade, they are quite nice. Except for the price... Link

 

Maybe Banivechi can tell his experiences of obtaining such coins. I find them to be notoriously difficult.

[grivna1726]

I guess I have to be looking for a XF+ to see the full beauty of it.

 

 

That will set you back a few bucks. These coins usually come in horrible condition and anything XF or better is going to attract a significant premium.

[gxseries]

grivna, are you aware of the overstrucked 1795 2 para - 3 kopek into 2 kopeks and 1 para - 3 dengi to 1 kopek?

 

I have managed to see a picture of it before, and they are very difficult to locate.

[grivna1726]

grivna, are you aware of the overstrucked 1795 2 para - 3 kopek into 2 kopeks and 1 para - 3 dengi to 1 kopek?

 

I have managed to see a picture of it before, and they are very difficult to locate.

 

I can't say I know much about them other than I have heard they exist, but I don't know why. The only copper overstriking program I can think of after the Sadogur coins were issued is the 1796 Cipher series under Catherine II and Paul's reoverstriking of the Cipher coinage.

 

Are these overstruck as Cipher series coins, or as reoverstrikes under Paul, or maybe even overstruck by a later ruler?

 

I don't recall ever seeing an overstruck Sadogur coin. Do you have a picture or any further information?

[gxseries]

Here you go Grivna:

 

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/8171/pg1194fa.jpg

 

I think it is very undeniable that the orginal coins are indeed the Sadagura coins. In fact, Uzedenikov goes on listing unique coin edges only in 1795 but only in 2 kopeks and 1 kopek, which is exactly the same edging of the Sadagura coins.

 

As of why, I still haven't come across materials of why this occured.

[grivna1726]

Thank you, gx.

 

I take it that image is scanned from Uzdenikov. Which of his books (and which revision or edition of it) is the scan taken from?

[gxseries]

This is the book you should be looking out for Grivna:

 

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/6954/coverpage07zq.jpg

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/4504/pg0012xx.jpg

 

I must warn you that the text is all in Russian, so the illustrations are great help. I am slowing checking out the texts when I have the time, but that is really a pain in the neck just to comprehend...

[grivna1726]

This is the book you should be looking out for Grivna:

 

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/6954/coverpage07zq.jpg

http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/4504/pg0012xx.jpg

 

I must warn you that the text is all in Russian, so the illustrations are great help. I am slowing checking out the texts when I have the time, but that is really a pain in the neck just to comprehend...

 

I am using the 1992 bilingual (Russian & English) version of Uzdenikov's catalog. I think this might not be a revised edition of that book, but maybe be an entirely different book (judging from the subtitle). Hopefully, more of the useful Russian works will be translated into English for those of us who struggle with the language.

 

Thank you for the information. I will keep an eye out for this book.

[gxseries]

Grivna, here is a better image of an overstruck Sadagura coin. I am very sure that it's too obvious from the illustration.

 

http://www.numismat.ru/cgi-bin/shop.cgi?sh...ins&image1=6030

[banivechi]

How much is 21,000 Roubles?

[grivna1726]

How much is 21,000 Roubles?

 

$783 according to www.xe.com

 

1 RUB = 0.0372863 USD 1 USD = 26.8195 RUB

[Scottishmoney]

My then 10 yr old daughter bought a Sadagura coin for $10 out of a Russian dealers $10 junkbox. I asked her why she wanted it, when she could have taken one of many large 5 Kopek coins instead. She did not know why she wanted it, but it was worth far more than she paid for it, and the dealer confessed inasmuch as he would that he salted the coin in there to see if anybody noticed it. I have offered her good money for the coin when she wanted money for her computer games, but she will NOT sell it.

[banivechi]

This month started good for my Sadagura collection: from Brasov coin show (4'th August) I come back home with 2 coins 2 Para - 3 Kopeks : one 1772 and one 1773, and today has come a small package from France (vive ebay.fr!) with another one 2 Para - 3 kopeks 1772, one of the heaviest: 20.5 grams!!! This happens after a whole year without any new acquisition. At two major coin shows in Germany I was unable to find one, even in poor condition!

Talking about the weight of these coins,my heaviest is 20.5 grams (1772)and the lightest is 15.11 grams (1774)... But I still need some hundreds more to have enough bronze to rebuild a Turkish cannon...

[STEVE MOULDING]

In my study of Catherine II 1-Kopeck coins (forthcoming Journal of the Russian Numismatic Society) I was able to trace 5 different 1795MM 1 Kopeck pieces.

 

All 5 have been overstruck on a Moldavian Para - 3 Dengi and all show the distinctive square frame from the undercoin.

 

Steve

[BKB]

Hi Steve, I took your advice and I am here. This is a great forum. And I love this topic, but you definitely know about Sadogura more than I do. Who is giving the lecture?

[banivechi]

Hi Steve,  I took your advice and I am here.  This is a great forum.  And I love this topic, but you definitely know about Sadogura more than I do.  Who is giving the lecture?

About Sadagura coins:

These coins have been emitted during the 1769-1774 Russian - Turkish War, that has ended with the Kuciuk - Kainargi peace. In order to have an unique currency, with determined value in both countries: Moldavia and Wallachia, with whom to pay for the products needed to supply the Russian troops, the Russian army commander in Danube area, Marshal count Rumyantsev, emitted copper coins. The concession for the coinage of 500,000 roubles is given to Baron Peter Nikolai of Gartemberg, known as "Sadogurski". The mint had been installed at Sadagura - or Sadagora - (near Cernowczy, today in Ukraine) a small village lost in forest, populated in majority by Jews. The Russian army had provided aprox. 1,000 Turkish cannons and mortars, captured as material for coins. It had been agreed to struck coins of 21 roubles and 60 kopecks from one pud (1 pud = 16.385 Kg = 40 funts), at an official currency rate of 1 para = 2 denga and 2 para = 3 kopecks. (40 Para=1 Leeuwendaalder who was official currency in Wallachia). But the coins have not this weight (22,756 grams for the 2Para-3 kopeks coin). Around 20grams had the coins struck in 1772, in 1773 weight decrease to around 17 grams, and in 1774 become 15-16 grams of copper. In neighbour Transylvania emperess Maria Theresia ordered to not to be accepted these coins in any case. These coins represent the first attempt of monetary unity of the two countries. At the end of the campaign baron Gartemberg had been accused of striking coins in inflationist purposes, almost 3,000,000 roubles, according to some sources, although he pleaded there had been only 700,000. The Sadagura mint ceased activity in April 1774 when Austrian troops approached.

Anyway it was money without pretious metal refund, hence the saying "a thing worth 2 para". Today these coins represent rarities and numismatic curiousities.

Question: Were was moved the mint after April 1774?

[BKB]

Ok, great account! Couple of corrections (minor).

 

There is a number of documents about delivery of copper coin by Gartenberg. From these figures Uzdenikov came up with mintage figures:

 

1771 -- 3,224.37 roubles (all patterns)

1772 -- 266,755.43 roubles

1773 -- 331,631.13 roubles

1774 -- 70,018.00 roubles

 

These figures are more realistic than 3,000,000 roubles, because the coins are quiet rare -- especially 1771 and some 1772 and 1774. Some specimens are in good condition notwithstanding that the coins are made out of bronze. Also, not too many were overstruck, for the overstruck coins are more rare than most 1771 patterns. Thus, if 3000000 roubles were struck, we would see much more of these coins, and we would see much more of these in great condition.

 

Now the question -- what happened to the mint? As there is no direct document to my knowledge about what happened to the mint, let us do our own research. We shall start at the beginning -- Document #169 from 1771 listed in Georgiy Mikhailovich among other things it provides:

 

1. "Ueber dieses bezahlt der Entrepeneur von einem halben Million rubelschlage Satz 60.000 rubel" -- pay 60,000 rubles for every .5 million. (Interesting that he produces coins, and also has to pay for it) Thus, he must make a profit on coin production itself.

 

2. der Entrepeneur schaffet auf seine kosten die muntz-instrumente und die meisters an -- that the cost of "tools" for the mint and mint masters shall be the entrepeneur's responsibility.

 

This shows that Gartenberg was to equip the "Sadogura mint" himself. Thus, the instrument belonged to him and there was no reason for Russians to account for that and to utilize it after the production stopped.

 

Then there are a bunch of documents that show delivery of coin by Gartenberg.

 

Then there is a document #225 -- (August 24, 1774) Order to stop accepting coin from Gartenberg.

 

Then there is document #226 -- (August 24, 1774) Order to stap accepting cast cannons from Gartenberg!!!! (very important) Also there was a number of previous orders about acceptance of cannons from him and the accounting of such acceptance.

 

Then there is a document #228 -- (August 26, 1774) (Rimsky - Korsakov to Pashkov) Order to stop accepting coin from Gartenberg.

 

Then there is document # 231 -- (September 26, 1774) (to Brigadier Meder) Order to stop accepting coin from Gartenberg.

 

Then there is document #237 -- (Nov 27, 1774) Report from General - Major Rimsky -Korsakov --- to Rumyantsev!!!) Report about the absence of the recordation of conditions upon which Gartenberg was given the privilege to stamp coins !?!?!?!?

 

Then there is a document #244 -- (1775) (Report of Rimsky - Korsakov) Gartenberg was overcharging for shipment of copper (2,038 rubles in stead of 564 rubles)

 

There are more documents that are talking about salt concessions given to Gartenberg and him settling the payment for those concessions with canons he cast.

 

It certainly appears that Gartenberg was quiet an entrepreneur… He first went into coin production. Then he received a salt concession. Then tried paying for that concession in coin he minted. Then he began casting cannons for Russian army. Then he used those cannons to settle the accounts on salt concession.

 

Finally, I read an article somewhere, I do not remember and could not find a source, which said that at the end Gartenberg absconded without paying the Russian government the money he owed. The remaining instrument of the mint was left to rot. However, I cannot stand by this statement until I find the reference and get a confirmation of the source.

 

To tell you the truth, when I read the documents, it was very odd to see so much missing and anaccounted for. I know there was a war with Turkey, but still... It was just too much. I think everyone made out OK (including Rumyantsev) with bribes and "profit sharing" the Russian way (IMXO of course)

[BKB]

some images for fun:

 

[BKB]

another:

 

[BKB]

Isaid before: "Finally, I read an article somewhere, I do not remember and could not find a source, which said that at the end Gartenberg absconded without paying the Russian government the money he owed."

 

I found the source. It is an article in the JRNS #5 p.2 The sources: GM and P. von Vinkler -- good enough for me :-)

 

Still no mention of what happened to the dies...

[grivna1726]

This is a great thread. Lots of new (to me, if not the contributors) information.

 

Very impressive!

[banivechi]

These figures are more realistic than 3,000,000 roubles, because the coins are quiet rare

Romanian authors (Octavian Iliescu - The History of coins in Romania iliescu and Costin Kiritescu ,Money System of the Leu and Its Precursors volI. 1964), gives this source for the amount of 3 Mill. roubles: J. POLEK, Die ehemalige russische Münzstätte in Sadagora, JBLM (Jahrbuch des Bukowiner Landes-Museums), 2, 1894, p.3-10.

And in 1771 was also put in circulation the Para - 3 Dengi coins, not only patterns were made.

[BKB]

It is all nice, and I will not argue with those authors because I did not read the articles. I am not very interested in Romanian coins (besides this particular period) Can you please provide a page number in the document to which you gave a link to where you saw 3,000,000? 3 mln rubles in copper coin is a lot of coin... Maybe 3 mln coins?

 

As to para-3 dengi -- it has Valak instead of Valask. You could argue that the same coin came out in 1772, while the other patterns were not continued, but Valak in 1772 (which I also call a pattern) is even more rare than the 1771. By the way, if you think it is a regular circulation coin, then I would be more than happy to purchase yours (1772 Valak) listed on your web cite.

[banivechi]

Kiritescu 1

Kiritescu 2

Buzdugan 1

Buzdugan 2

Buzdugan 3

Buzdugan 4

Buzdugan 5

Here are some links:

Kiritescu 1 and 2 are scans from the book Costin Kiritescu ,Money System of the Leu and Its Precursors vol I. 1964 (it is in Romanian language, but you can read the amount of 3,000,000 roubles and the source: J. POLEK, Die ehemalige russische Münzstätte in Sadagora, JBLM (Jahrbuch des Bukowiner Landes-Museums), 2, 1894, p.3-10. )

The links named Buzdugan 1 to 5 are scans from the book G. Buzdugan, C. Ionescu, O. Iliescu "Romanian coins and banknotes", were you can find the description of Sadagura coins, patterns and normal issues.

And, my Para - 3 Dengi 1772 VALAK is not for sale... even if it is a pattern...

gxseries sent me past year a scan from Uzdenikov (it was impossible to me until now to find one in Romania) were this 1772 VALAK is described. In Buzdugan it does not appears...

Also I have many variants in my collection who are not described... seems that were many more dies than are known today.

[BKB]

There were a multitude of dies used because the metal was bronze, which is much harder than copper and it destroyed the dies much faster. Thus, there will be a huge amount of minor die variations. The problem is that not too many people collect this issue due to predominant bad quality. Hence -- no extensive research.

 

Thank you for the articles. To tell you the truth, I am still very suspicious of the 3 mln rouble figure -- that is hundreds of milions of coins!!!! Where are they? Where are the coins in XF condition? I only have 3 -- one, that pattern in AU58, another pattern in XF, and the last is regular circulation coin (Para) How many do you have in XF or higher? I have patterns of different period with mintage of 15, 25, 50 pieces in Proof!!! I have coins of Ekaterina II in AU. I used to live in Stanislav -- 2 hours from Chernovtsi. You live not too far. Have you seen a lot of these in good condition? I have not... XF specimens of business striking routinely sell for $400+. Now, for a common coin that is just too much. The fact that there are coins in XF quality shows that not all of those minted were bad. Now, if you have 100 to 150 mln coins minted -- there should be a good quantity available to collectors in great condition. But the good ones sell over and over again -- same coins changing hands... Also, do not forget that these did not circulate too much, because Russians would not accept it, and the people did not like them.