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Grading: what are your thoughts on this one?


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I know grading is subjective, and that varies with the person looking at it and their experience in the hobby/business. If you were to assign a grade to this coin, what in your estimation would it be? Just curious......thanks!

 

 

Doug

 

03.24.06A-083a.jpg

 

03.24.06A-084a.jpg

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I would have to grade that coin an AU just from the marks in the feild on the reverse

 

I agree. There are some deep marks on the reverse that would hurt the grade.

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It looks like severe bagmarks and reedmarks everywhere. MS60 would be fair and possibly a bit generous. AU58 is definitely possible if the abrasion on the neck looks worse in hand. The reverse looks like a solid MS60.

 

That's where subjectivity comes into play. If it were not a 100 yr. old coin, it would probably grade a lot lower than MS.

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Looks lilke it has some nice luster, but there is a lot of chatter and some rub on the high points, particularly on the obverse. I would grade it AU-58 from the photos, though in today's crazy TPG world it could be graded from AU-55 to MS-62! Nice coin though!

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Thanks to everyone that weighed in. Although I'm a newbie to this hobby, I've found a couple of books and websites showing a few key points on what to look for when grading specific coins. In my amateur estimation, I figured this particular coin was probably good for MS60, nothing more than that.

 

I actually bought this coin, or should I say won it on Ebay. At gold current price of $581.50, this coin has a melt value of nearly $290.00

I noticed it was graded by this unknown TPG at...............MS-63!!!!

03.24.06A-083b.jpg

03.24.06A-084b.jpg

 

 

For what I paid, $310, it seems like I got a fair deal at just over 6% above melt value. I may be cracking open this slab and having ANACS give it the real grade, but for now i'll probably just hang onto it.

 

I guess the one thing that i learned here really reinforces my understanding that NGC, PCGS and ANACS are really the only three TPGs that i'll trust to do my grading.

 

thanks again everyone, I just wanted to point out the reason for my post and to make everyone aware of this TPG and their grading practices.

 

Regards,

 

Doug

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last week I bought 66 $20 libs. (yes that's 66) from a collector and every one looked like this coin...they are commerical AU sliders

 

 

Matt,

 

Wow! sounds like the mother lode someone was hanging onto. I would imagine your career must be fun when this kind of thing happens, especially when you both come to a price that is agreeable. If you don't mind me asking, do you know how he came to own all of these? I often hear of collectors/others owning a lot of a certain type of gold coin, and wonder whether they were passed down from relatives and they have had them tucked away in a safe deposit box, or were these the collection from a person that spent years buying a few here and there, only to sell them as they retired? Either way, I'll bet the person ended up getting a nice return versus what they bought them for years ago, and you got a good deal as gold is now hot and collectors are scooping them up. thanks!

 

Regards,

 

Doug

 

BTW, do you have any nice $10 Libs in your shop? I've become fascinated with this coin after picking up a few and am always looking for decent ones (common dates only)..

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What an important lesson! The good thing is that you bought the coin, and not the holder. You paid what I consider a fair price for that coin in the condition it's in, certainly a lot less than an accurately graded MS-63! Still, it's a very nice looking AU coin which I doubt will be a problem having ANACS certify as such.

 

As for the hoard of libs that Lost Dutchman bought, before it was legal to own gold, this was the way people invested in the metal. I've read that jewelers mostly would buy rolls of common date Saints and Libs and use them for making jewelry (not like putting them in bezels either, I mean like totally melting them down to make rings and chains and such!). People used to buy them by the roll, as when gold was pegged at $35/oz in the late 1960s most common date double eagles could be bought for $40-50 each, so a roll might only be $800 or $1,000. In fact, not too long ago, I read an ad by a dealer in coin world that relayed a story of a customer that send him several $1000 face bags of junk silver coins to sell, and he had forgotten about three rolls of Saints that were sitting at the bottom of one of the bags! Lucky for him, the dealer was honest and told him about them. Still, it would be pretty cool to see someone come in with all those double eagles raw!

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I just Had to weigh in on this one. Because i Live in the far east, i probably see more fakes/counterfeits than most of you do. I hate to tell you this, but i've been seeing ALOT of Graded/Slabbed GOLD coins lately by "unknown" TPG services like the one i am seeing here. The Chinese are getting more tricky and sophisticated, and MOST of the "coins" i am seeing are $5 and $10 LIBS, and MOST are 1906! I HOPE and PRAY that you have not fallen into a trap on these. PLEASE, people, BEWARE of TPG'S that you do not recognize. Reaserch them BEFORE you bid. Their slabbing techs look good and Authentic! I am starting to see more $20's now, as well. They have caught onto using more common dates (for the gold coins) to appear less suspicious. I was successful recently at convincing the local ebay (philippines) to bump several of these guys off our site, but have gotten some pretty serious and threatening emails. Next time i see one i'll post it here for all to see. Meanwhile, i'll be saying a prayer for Doogy. The bottom line is...DO NOT TRUST A SLABBED TPGS THAT YOU DON'T RECOGNIZE!

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For what I paid, $310, it seems like I got a fair deal at just over 6% above melt value.  I may be cracking open this slab and having ANACS give it the real grade, but for now i'll probably just hang onto it.

 

Just out of curiosity, what is your reasoning for throwing down 20 bucks or whatever to have another slab placed around it. I suppose you might want to for resale or if you were a registry player, but as long as you know it is protected, authentic, and you are keeping for your own enjoyment, why waste the money? Personally, I like the big 3 TPGs not for grading, but for the authenticity part. As pauldean mentioned, we see a lot of problems in this part of the world...mostly coming out of China, although I think the local coins are faked locally. I actually bought my last Thai coin from the USA because there were so many fakes and harshly cleaned coins at the market.

Just my 2 cents (and I'm not getting many takers at that price).

Dave

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Although there are a lot of fakes out there, nothing on this coin jumped out at me as a fake. NNC is one of those new slabbing companies, and Pauldean is right, their opinion on authenticity is probably not worth much. For Doogy and anyone else interested in pre-1933 US gold, I would recommend picking up a copy of Bill Fivaz's book on counterfeit gold detection. I just picked one up from the ANA bookstore for about $17, and it's well worth the investment. It has nice clear illustrations on the most commonly counterfeited dates, with keys to detecting fake and altered coins. In this part of the coin market, we must make sure we are confident in our own ability to grade and authenticate these coins, as TPGs are only as good as their warranties (and they do make mistakes!).

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I just Had to weigh in on this one. Because i Live in the far east, i probably see more fakes/counterfeits than most of you do. I hate to tell you this, but i've been seeing ALOT of Graded/Slabbed GOLD coins lately by "unknown" TPG services like the one i am seeing here. The Chinese are getting more tricky and sophisticated, and MOST of the "coins" i am seeing are $5 and $10 LIBS, and MOST are 1906! I HOPE and PRAY that you have not fallen into a trap on these. PLEASE, people, BEWARE of TPG'S that you do not recognize. Reaserch them BEFORE you bid. Their slabbing techs look good and Authentic! I am starting to see more $20's now, as well. They have caught onto using more common dates (for the gold coins) to appear less suspicious. I was successful recently at convincing the local ebay (philippines) to bump several of these guys off our site, but have gotten some pretty serious and threatening emails. Next time i see one i'll post it here for all to see. Meanwhile, i'll be saying a prayer for Doogy. The bottom line is...DO NOT TRUST A SLABBED TPGS THAT YOU DON'T RECOGNIZE!

 

 

thanks for the heads-up! I had heard that there are some real scumbags out there that are faking US gold (and British Sovereigns too). I actually bought this one from a rather large dealer that sells rare US gold as well as more common dates/condition such as this one. While there is a chance that this is fake, I'd bet that it probably isn't due to whom I'm purchasing it from. The point of my slabbing coins is not only to check authenticity, but to grade and protect my gold coin collection. thanks again for the input!

 

Doug

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What an important lesson!  The good thing is that you bought the coin, and not the holder.  You paid what I consider a fair price for that coin in the condition it's in, certainly a lot less than an accurately graded MS-63!  Still, it's a very nice looking AU coin which I doubt will be a problem having ANACS certify as such.

 

As for the hoard of libs that Lost Dutchman bought, before it was legal to own gold, this was the way people invested in the metal.  I've read that jewelers mostly would buy rolls of common date Saints and Libs and use them for making jewelry (not like putting them in bezels either, I mean like totally melting them down to make rings and chains and such!).  People used to buy them by the roll, as when gold was pegged at $35/oz in the late 1960s most common date double eagles could be bought for $40-50 each, so a roll might only be $800 or $1,000.  In fact, not too long ago, I read an ad by a dealer in coin world that relayed a story of a customer that send him several $1000 face bags of junk silver coins to sell, and he had forgotten about three rolls of Saints that were sitting at the bottom of one of the bags!  Lucky for him, the dealer was honest and told him about them.  Still, it would be pretty cool to see someone come in with all those double eagles raw!

 

 

Cool, thanks for the reassurance and the info regarding gold's recent history. I'll bet there are quite a few folks sitting around that have a couple rolls of $20 or $10 gold pieces, that they picked up quite some time ago. I'm not a dealer, but I can imagine they get pretty excited when a collector comes in with a roll of nice gold coins! :ninja:

 

Doug

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Matt/others..........

 

The same seller also has this 1907 date for roughly the same price, from the same TGG and grade. It too is overgraded, it would probably be AU or MS60 tops too I think. Any obvious problems with this one? thanks!

 

 

Doug

 

03.27.06A-055a.jpg

03.27.06A-056a.jpg

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Although folks like Matt have tons more experience at handling and grading Gold coins than ( I have NO doubt), me.... what sends red flags to waving in MY face is when i see a Very finely detailed 100 yr old coin, like the 1907, and it has remarkably heavy reeding/handling/bag marks....whatever you call it, in the STILL Lustry fields! As i said before, my experience in fakes and counterfeits has ALL been gained from personal experience (AND mistakes), from right here in the Philippines. While every countyr in the far east is churning these fakes out, few, if Any are done here in the Philippines. Theres Lots of Chinese peddlers here on the streets, and they ALL have them, while i Seldom see any of the local Filipina dealers with any of them. PLEASE have a look on ebay.ph RIGHT now. There is one Chinese dealer offering an array of Gold AND Silver SLABBED coins (FAKE SLABS!!!). Soooooo....when i hear someone say "good nthing you bought the cion, and not the holder...how do you really know without / weighing/ testing/ certifying the COIN? I bought a SLABBED and GRADED 17th century Peru 8 Reales with a YII CS (counterstamp) that turned out to be FAKE! From then on, i have only bought Slabbed coins that i was SURE of the TPG, and coins @ $60.up, ONLY from people i know, trust, dealt with before, and am sure i can get my money back if the deal goes south. Just my 2cents worth.

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