jlueke Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 I've been slowly reading through the small book Coin Chemistry listed in the Numismatic Books thread. It's a collection of articles by the author. There's some very interesting information. The author has quite a few articles on toning but one in paricular has settled into longer term memory. He deals with toning and dipping and the impact on the coin's luster. In essence the darker the color the more of the surface has been altered by toning (yello, red, blue, black). So any dip will remove more luster the darker the coin. A black coins is beyond repair, while two dips of blue coins will do the job. Obviously there's a lot of other factors, especially the length of the dip, but the point is that toning is damage to the pristine surface of the metal. The author also laments cons receiving higher grades because of toning which he considers post mint damage. I tend to agree, a coin can stay the same grade or go down but up? Eventually, unless you get some Intercept shields, the coin will head towards black. I also think that overdipped coins that have lost luster should be graded AU-dipped rather than just bodybagged Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stujoe Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 In my mind, toning can actually be seen as a protective coating and a normal state for the metal involved. So, I think he has that part wrong. In my mind, regardless of the toning involved, dipping is the actual damage. It may not be damage that is noticeable to the eye the first time or the second but it is damaging the coin. The proof is that if done enough times or long enough the damage becomes apparent to the eye. But, that is just a matter of degree and it damages the same way whether you are dipping a toned coin or a white coin. It is damage either way. The acid eats away at the metal and, of course on Uncs, that is the flow lines (luster). As far as the grade thing, I don't buy into the whole market grading thing so I agree with him there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kryptonitecomics Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Was the author's last name White??? There are a few toning nazi's out there spewing that garbage.......Toning is NOT damage......it's silvers natural reaction to it's environment and as Stujoe pointed out...the toning protects the surface of the coin. Also the fact that a coin has toning does not mean it will continue until it's black. Take a coin out of the environment and you have stopped the toning process. You don't need an intercept sheild for that.....only if you want to insure your coins never tone. There are beautiful rainbow toned coins that have been sitting in PCGS holders since they first began.......and 20+ years later they look just as colorful as the day they were slabbed. It's ok to not like toned coins but right now there is a lot of bashing going on and all folks really need is a little education on the subject. (I am not inferring that you personally are doing the bashing by the way) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikaros Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 It's ok to not like toned coins but right now there is a lot of bashing going on and all folks really need is a little education on the subject. Heck, it was news to me that there is an active community interested in toned coins. And definitely, it is all in the eye of the beholder anyway. I wouldn't buy a heavily toned coin, because they don't suit my eye, but I wouldn't hesitate at a subtly-toned one. The obverses on the quarters (but not so much the reverses and not at all the other silver) in my '00 silver proof set are going smoky, and it's a very pretty effect. A couple of the coins, it's only the frosted areas that are toning, which is very pretty indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kryptonitecomics Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 If you ever visit the other coin forums you will learn about what's being called Peacegate. That has brought about the bashing and the prognostication of the demise of toned coins on an almost daily basis. It will all blow over soon but right now....those that feel like it's stupid to pay a large premium for toned coins are in a feeding frenzy!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bustchaser Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 If you ever visit the other coin forums you will learn about what's being called Peacegate. That has brought about the bashing and the prognostication of the demise of toned coins on an almost daily basis. It will all blow over soon but right now....those that feel like it's stupid to pay a large premium for toned coins are in a feeding frenzy!!! Well, it is stupid to pay a large premium for toned coins. It is also, in and of itself, stupid to pay a premium over face value for ANY coin. That doesn't (nor should it) keep one from doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ætheling Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Was the author's last name White??? There are a few toning nazi's out there spewing that garbage.......Toning is NOT damage......it's silvers natural reaction to it's environment and as Stujoe pointed out...the toning protects the surface of the coin. I beg to differ, toning is damage, environmental damage. I don't want to get into an eye appeal debate here, i'm talking on a purely chemical level. Take Iron, Iron reacting with H2O and O2 eventually leads to Iron oxide or rust. Few would argue that rust is not damaging the metal as it flakes away. It is progressive oxidisation. Silver likewise oxidises generally to black, if left in an environment with O2 constantly attacking it it will eventually turn black, it might take years but it will happen. There is a webpage out there somewhere (i can't find it now) but it shows the oxidisation process in action on the alkaline metals and on some of the rare earth metals. Watch them go... literally as they turn to powder! [of course they're very reactive but it shows you exactly what's happening with silver, just a bit faster]. Cut sodium and watch the shiny surface slowly turn grey and eventually darker grey, silver does the same but much more slowly many decades slower. As for the bright colours being shown from the silver coins this is merely light reflection due to changes in the surface of the coin. Certain colours are reflected more this is due to something being on the surface of the coin, be it silver oxide, silver chloride or whatever. Silver has progressive oxidisation, i.e if left it gets worse (hence tarnishing, once it's tarnished it's tarnished if left it will get worse, to remove it you have to strip away the layer of silver that has reacted with the atmosphere, which creates more damage). Aluminium on the other hand has protective oxidisation in that the oxide is less reactive than the elemental form, so once the metal is totally coated with a thin oxide layer no further reaction can take place, although that initial layer of aluminium on the surface is no longer pure aluminium, it's physically changed into a compound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlueke Posted February 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Was the author's last name White??? Yes, see Coin Chemistry To make one clarification all this deals with silver, with copper people usually leave on the patina and it is stable. I suspect the silver patina is stable as well but I am unsure if that happens only after you get black level. Before then if you remove the coin from sulfur it should stay the color it made it to. But, the author did do an experiment to show that coins in slabs do tone. Heck, I have a cent in a PCGS holder that's gone from RED to RB in 5 years. He does push the intercept product to retard all toning. In my view, you can certainly enjoy the pretty toning and you can halt further toning by properly protecting the coin. But, the damage to the silver metal is chemically real. Silver has changed to silver sulfide and will never change back. You may like that process, but it is still an alteration to the coins minted state. I do agree with White that colored coins should not be graded higher. That doesn't mean people can't more or less for them, that's the market at work. The main point of the chapter was that toning, dipping,and retoning will quickly damage and then eliminate luster. My biggest question is that if I can tone coins in slabs, should they then be worth more money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ætheling Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Revisiting the tricky subject of the colours silver turns. Simplistically put; Imagine the surface of the coin, light hits it reflects and it looks silver. Chemical reactions with the atmosphere can alter the surface of the coin, say the coin develops a thin layer of oxide. The chemical changes can affect the makeup of the coin's surface, tying up electrons in the compound, i presume this would change their energy levels? (An physicists/chemists in the building?) Electrons vibrate at certain frequencies depending upon the substance they are part of, the more energy the more they move. I presume a chemical reaction would alter the energy state of the electrons and this accounts for the tarnishing or the colour change. So for instance if a coin turns to a red tone then the red light frequencies are still being reflected but the other frequencies are now being absorbed. Which suggests that the energy frequencies of the electrons in the intial layer of the coin have been changed and have increased their vibrations. If they had decreased in energy then they'd be giving of blue and absorbing red. Or so as i understand it, but i'm no physicist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ætheling Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Yes, see Coin Chemistry To make one clarification all this deals with silver, with copper people usually leave on the patina and it is stable. I suspect the silver patina is stable as well but I am unsure if that happens only after you get black level. Before then if you remove the coin from sulfur it should stay the color it made it to. But, the author did do an experiment to show that coins in slabs do tone. Heck, I have a cent in a PCGS holder that's gone from RED to RB in 5 years. He does push the intercept product to retard all toning. In my view, you can certainly enjoy the pretty toning and you can halt further toning by properly protecting the coin. But, the damage to the silver metal is chemically real. Silver has changed to silver sulfide and will never change back. You may like that process, but it is still an alteration to the coins minted state. I do agree with White that colored coins should not be graded higher. That doesn't mean people can't more or less for them, that's the market at work. The main point of the chapter was that toning, dipping,and retoning will quickly damage and then eliminate luster. My biggest question is that if I can tone coins in slabs, should they then be worth more money? That's right sulphides not oxides. Sorry temp slip there from me, it's been a while since i did any chemistry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlueke Posted February 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 The way I understand the color changes is that it depends on the depth of the silver sulfide layer. A thin layer is yellow, a thicker layer is red, then blue, until the layer gets thick enough to block all the light and turns black. The guy had the depths listed in the book, I can post those values later today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ætheling Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 The way I understand the color changes is that it depends on the depth of the silver sulfide layer. A thin layer is yellow, a thicker layer is red, then blue, until the layer gets thick enough to block all the light and turns black. The guy had the depths listed in the book, I can post those values later today. It's all down to energy somewhere along the line though because colour is light and light is a form of energy (hence E=MC2, energy = mass X speed of light squared). Although perhaps certain thicknesses reflect it at certain angles... ah who cares. (Physics was never my strong point). End of the day though it's still an entertaining way to watch a coin die (or dye). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtryka Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 This discussion as well as "Peacegate" once again remind me what a blessing it is to collect gold coins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpnyc Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Here's one of my "damaged" coins....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuldFartte Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 This discussion as well as "Peacegate" once again remind me what a blessing it is to collect gold coins. I like a lot of toned coins I've seen, and I've paid "stupid money" for some that I own. I buy what appeals to me, whether other people like it or not. I don't really care if it is considered "damage" to some. It's pretty to me, and I ain't gonna live long enough to see 'em turn black anyway Some of the prettier ones are in my sig below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burks Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Here's one of my "damaged" coins....... You really should melt that down. Coins damaged that much should be considered junk and disposed off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlueke Posted February 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Here's one of my "damaged" coins....... Practically black allready. Better just send it to the smelter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster110 Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 toning is a natural process on a coin. it is not damage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stujoe Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Toning on silver is not the same as rust on iron neither on a chemical level nor a physical level. It involves different chemicals (Oxygen as opposed to Sulphur) and it is not a destructive process (you will not see a toned silver coin disolve from the reaction like iron will). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikaros Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 If you ever visit the other coin forums you will learn about what's being called Peacegate. That has brought about the bashing and the prognostication of the demise of toned coins on an almost daily basis. It will all blow over soon but right now....those that feel like it's stupid to pay a large premium for toned coins are in a feeding frenzy!!! I have found that in general, predictions of the death of any one segment of the coin collecting market are about as accurate as predictions that the Mint will stop hammering out pennies or that the Treasury will stop printing one dollar bills. You're going to pay a premium for what you want, and the value of an object to a collector can bear no resemblance whatsoever to 'book' value. I was doing flea markets when I was eleven--back when they were all small antique dealers, coin dealers, etc. and not Amway and Herbalife shows--this I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kryptonitecomics Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 I still love the fact that folks still claim infatically that toning is damage........what a riot.......please keep up the story so I can get some discounts on some pretty toned coins....I love you guys!!! The grading services are all completly incompotent as they keep giving out MS65-MS69 grades to damaged toned coins........it's a big scam I tell you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiffibunny Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDJMSP Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 White has been spouting off about this subject for years - apparently in the hope that eventually somebody would listen to him. In a purely techinical sense I suppose he is correct. Luckily, in my opinion, most of the numismatic world ignores him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burks Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Luckily, in my opinion, most of the numismatic world ignores him. *Checks recent toned coin auctions* Yup. Sure looks like they are ignoring his "advice". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ætheling Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 I still love the fact that folks still claim infatically that toning is damage........what a riot.......please keep up the story so I can get some discounts on some pretty toned coins....I love you guys!!! The grading services are all completly incompotent as they keep giving out MS65-MS69 grades to damaged toned coins........it's a big scam I tell you Well you're welcome to them. Slabbing is a scam in itself as a grade is merely an opinion, not an absolute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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