My favorite Russian coin

[grivna1726]

This is my most treasured Russian coin.

 

It is my other 1726 grivna, a genuine original copper plate struck in Ekaterinburg in 1726.

 

This coin should theoretically weigh in at ~164 grams. Mine is underweight at 153.7 grams.

 

There were many problems with the production of the copper plates, with wide variances in weight. This is why there are some plates known with inspector's stamps on the reverse.

 

The plate production stopped in early 1727 and the existing plates were recalled from circulation and melted. Genuine examples are seldom offered today, most are fakes. This one is real and has been in my collection for more than 20 years.

 

There are some genuine novodels of the plates, but even they are seldom offered.

 

Please forgive the poor quality of the photo. I am new to digital photography and the coin was photographed through glass (I have it framed on a black velvet background).

[gxseries]

Wow grivna, you most certainly never fail to impress me. What I am suprised is that there seems be an extra failed strike at the left side of the planchet and the uneven planchet, which is a normal product of Ekaterinburg mint.

[grivna1726]

What I am suprised is that there seems be an extra failed strike at the left side of the planchet and the uneven planchet, which is a normal product of Ekaterinburg mint.

 

 

The blanks for the plates were very crudely produced. Even with aid of imported expert Swedish help in plate production, there were many technical difficulties.

 

The ghost stamp seems to be the result of the punches "bouncing" when the plates were struck (the grivny were struck as a unit with the 5 punches mounted into a square metal base which held them in position). GM has a plate with a similar ghosted image of the center stamp which Brekke reproduced in his book (see Brekke-42). Mine is Brekke-52, the variety with the plain eagle's breast (they are also known with a shield on the breast or the Empress's monogram).

 

The plate money was a very shortlived issue, but one of the most interesting as well.

[Sir Sisu]

VERY NICE! I have never actually seen any Russian plate money before. The Swedish stuff yes, but not Russian.

[grivna1726]

VERY NICE! I have never actually seen any Russian plate money before. The Swedish stuff yes, but not Russian.

 

Russian plate money doesn't show up very often and when it does, it is almost always fake. A previously unknown polpoltina (quarter ruble) plate showed up at the New York International in the early 1980s. Naturally, its appearance caused quite a stir and it was initially greeted with some skepticism because it was about one third overweight. However, it was later confirmed genuine and ended up in Brekke's personal collection in 1984. Brekke also owned several original grivny plates (and a novodel), including an original 1726 grivna bearing the "ПР/ГА" plate money inspector stamp on the reverse (ПР=ПРИЕМЦИК=Inspector and ГА=Gavril Albychev).

[Scottishmoney]

I have only seen one piece of Russian plate money, it was in a museum in Khabarovsk, Russia.

 

I wonder if that imported Swedish help was voluntary, or some of the thousands of Swedish prisoners that still languished in captivity in Russia after the Great Northern War?

[THUMPER]

NICE TO SEE A REAL ONE .. I HAVE ONLY COPIES .. TWO 1 KOPEK, AND ONE EACH FIVE AND TEN KOPEK. ALSO THE ROUBLE.. THE EAGLES ON THE FAKES LOOK LIKE CHICKENS WITH THEIR NECKS WRUNG .. EASY TO SPOT ..

[gxseries]

Russian plate money doesn't show up very often and when it does, it is almost always fake.  A previously unknown polpoltina (quarter ruble) plate showed up at the New York International in the early 1980s.  Naturally, its appearance caused quite a stir and it was initially greeted with some skepticism because it was about one third overweight.  However, it was later confirmed genuine and ended up in Brekke's personal collection in 1984.  Brekke also owned several original grivny plates (and a novodel), including an original 1726 grivna bearing the "ПР/ГА" plate money inspector stamp on the reverse (ПР=ПРИЕМЦИК=Inspector and ГА=Gavril Albychev).

 

That is some fantastic news... Thanks for sharing

[Art]

Very interesting piece. I have only seen pictures of a few pieces of plate money. Never had the opportunity to see the real thing.

[jlueke]

Cool. Very interesting piece and history. The picture is fine as well.

[grivna1726]

I have only seen one piece of Russian plate money, it was in a museum in Khabarovsk, Russia. 

 

I wonder if that imported Swedish help was voluntary, or some of the thousands of Swedish prisoners that still languished in captivity in Russia after the Great Northern War?

 

 

I believe it was a Swede hired from one of the Swedish mints who had experience in making plate money there. I will have to check my references to confirm that my recollection is correct in that respect.

 

The bulk of the Russian plate production was in the grivna denomination. These plates are small in comparison to the contemporary Swedish issues. Here is a picture which includes a dime (for scale for those unfamiliar with these coins).

[Ray]

A wonderful "coin"? I didn't even know there was plate money from Russia.

[Scottishmoney]

I believe it was a Swede hired from one of the Swedish mints who had experience in making plate money there.  I will have to check my references to confirm that my recollection is correct in that respect.

 

The bulk of the Russian plate production was in the grivna denomination.  These plates are small in comparison to the contemporary Swedish issues.  Here is a picture which includes a dime (for scale for those unfamiliar with these coins).

 

 

I would not be surprised that they hired from someone from Sweden, this was something particularly fascinating during the reign of Petr I, was that he would hire anybody from wherever if they were qualified for the job and were loyal. On this vain his navy was created by a Scotsman, and some of the influences for reformation came from a purported visit to the then mintmaster at the Tower of London, Sir Isaac Newton during Petr I's visit in 1698. Petr I's reign also saw the decimalisation of the Russian currency, a first in the world.

 

I have a couple of examples of Swedish plate money on my site linked below, I would like to find more but they got a lot pricier after I purchased these.

[grivna1726]

In response to your comment about the Swedish master help, here is what the late Ran Zander had to say:

 

"The Swedish master mechanic Deichmann was engaged as a technological chief to oversee and guide the setting up of the plate works at Ekaterinburg. He had the examples of the long-established procedure at Sweden's principal copper mint at Avesta as well as a more modern method developed just recently at Stockholm. The Moscow mint provided workmen, skilled however at coining round money and not plates. Two large sheds were thrown together to accomodate the new works. Deichmann and the Moscow team carried with them an array of gear, much of it with a view to enabling them to manufacture on site the machinery needed to produce the plates...Central to the operation were heavy shearing machines and great tilt-hammers, the largest of 21 poods power, able to impress adequately even the five-element design of a plate grivna in a single blow....Though Deichmann had a great measure of authority in his sphere, he was dealing with craftsmen proud of their skill and resourcefulness and inevitably touchy about foreign supervision if too tightly exercised. Out of this relationship there developed various modifications so that the Russian plate pieces were not simply replicas of the Swedish..."

 

While Zander did not definitely state that the Swedish master was not a prisoner, the circumstances as described suggest that he was imported (and presumably very well paid) for his expertise as a consultant and project supervisor.

 

Other than the mention of Deichmann as described above, I know nothing of this man. Given your interest in the Swedish plates, is it possible that you might be able to shed further light on the matter?

 

Congratulations on your Swedish plates as shown on your website. One day I hope to acquire a small contemporary Swedish plate as a companion piece for my grivna.

 

The tilt-hammers mentioned are described as being up to "21 poods power". The pood is a weight equal to about 36 pounds. So that would work out to about 756 pounds power.

[jlueke]

I would not be surprised that they hired from someone from Sweden, this was something particularly fascinating during the reign of Petr I, was that he would hire anybody from wherever if they were qualified for the job and were loyal.  On this vain his navy was created by a Scotsman, and some of the influences for reformation came from a purported visit to the then mintmaster at the Tower of London, Sir Isaac Newton during Petr I's visit in 1698.  Petr I's reign also saw the decimalisation of the Russian currency, a first in the world.

 

I remember from some biographies I read about Peter the Great that he was desperately trying to modernize Russia and did this by bringing in skilled people frlom elsewhere in Europe. The Orthodox church and the boyers (nobles I think) opposed this. One story related how Peter forcibly had all the long beards cut off of the nobility.

[Scottishmoney]

Other than the mention of Deichmann as described above, I know nothing of this man.  Given your interest in the Swedish plates, is it possible that you might be able to shed further light on the matter?

 

Congratulations on your Swedish plates as shown on your website.  One day I hope to acquire a small contemporary Swedish plate as a companion piece for my grivna.

 

The tilt-hammers mentioned are described as being up to "21 poods power".  The pood is a weight equal to about 36 pounds.  So that would work out to about 756 pounds power.

 

 

Problem I have is that all the references on Swedish plate money are for the most part in Swedish. I actually looked at some of the plates in a coin dealer's business when I was in Stockholm once, I was interested in them but did not have a lot of time before I had to head back to Denmark, so alas I did not make any purchases.

 

I saw two 1676 2 Dalers that a USA dealer, Aleks Basok had at a coin show here, but they were 2500$ each, a bit rich when I have other Grecian interests.

 

Somehow the power for the hammers even @ 21 poods doesn't seem enough, it seems like there would have had to have been more power than that for these rather voluminous pieces.

 

I have seen several Russian plate fakes even on eBay as of today, at ridiculous prices, the one that is Grivna is not a bad fake, but the Kopeikas are glaringly forged.

[Scottishmoney]

I remember from some biographies I read about Peter the Great that he was desperately trying to modernize Russia and did this by bringing in skilled people frlom elsewhere in Europe.  The Orthodox church and the boyers (nobles I think) opposed this.  One story related how Peter forcibly had all the long beards cut off of the nobility.

 

 

Petr I performed an awful lot of the beardotomies by himself, often with a dull knife, so that they would not let him perform such again. On a numismatic, or quasi numismatic note, to wear a beard, one had to pay a beard tax and wear a beard tax token, these are rather scarce today, not many could afford the usorious tax.

[grivna1726]

Problem I have is that all the references on Swedish plate money are for the most part in Swedish.  I actually looked at some of the plates in a coin dealer's business when I was in Stockholm once, I was interested in them but did not have a lot of time before I had to head back to Denmark, so alas I did not make any purchases.

 

That is unfortunate. I checked Forrer on the slim hope that I might find something there, but because Zander described Deichmann as a "master mechanic" rather than a diecutter, I was not hopeful. I did find a listing for an Alexander Deichmann "(Russ.) Coin-engraver and medallist at the Mint of Koliwan 1818-1821". Perhaps he was a descendent of the plate money Deichmann?

 

I wondered if this Deichmann might be known to Swedish specialists for his apparent involvement in plate money production in the Swedish mint(s).

 

 

 

 

I saw two 1676 2 Dalers that a USA dealer, Aleks Basok had at a coin show here, but they were 2500$ each, a bit rich when I have other Grecian interests.

 

Well, it sounds like Swedish plates have gone up considerably in price. However, I am relatively ignorant of the Swedish series and its price structure. I am under the impression that 2 daler plates dating from the 1600s are considerably rarer than those of the 1700s, so perhaps the price escalation is not as great as it sounds.

 

 

Somehow the power for the hammers even @ 21 poods doesn't seem enough, it seems like there would have had to have been more power than that for these rather voluminous pieces.

 

I had the same thought. Assuming that the power quoted is accurate (Zander was generally careful with his facts), I can only suggest that the "great tilt-hammers" he describes swung down from great height on the sheared metal below. When all that force focussed on just the plate punch array, the force might have been greater than it sounds, particularly if the copper plates had been softened up by heating them prior to striking. The noise must have been deafening.

 

 

I have seen several Russian plate fakes even on eBay as of today, at ridiculous prices, the one that is Grivna is not a bad fake, but the Kopeikas are glaringly forged.

 

Ebay's Russian section has some very unscrupulous sellers. I would never buy Russian plate money unless dealing with a reputable dealer and with expert advice.

[Sir Sisu]

...

Somehow the power for the hammers even @ 21 poods doesn't seem enough, it seems like there would have had to have been more power than that for these rather voluminous pieces...

 

Not neccessarily if the plates were perhaps heated slightly first. Not sure though as I have not read much on the techniques used to make these pieces.

[jlueke]

and wear a beard tax token, these are rather scarce today, not many could afford the usorious tax.

You wouldn't happen to have any, or a pic? That's an interesting item.

[gxseries]

You wouldn't happen to have any, or a pic?  That's an interesting item.

 

http://members.aye.net/~cbgnkiro/book/othe...beard-token.htm

[grivna1726]

What I am suprised is that there seems be an extra failed strike at the left side of the planchet

 

 

gx, I found this picture on a Russian website. It shows a similar "ghost" image of the center punch. I'm not sure why this happens on some plates, but I think it is the result of the die punch array bouncing after the original strike.

 

This plate is the variety with shields on the eagle's breasts (mine is the plain breast variety). Plates are also known with Catherine's monogram on the eagle's breast.

 

[gxseries]

Grivna, I come across an interesting reference on how these plates were sruck - note illustration 4.

 

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3746/pg0262yy.jpg

[grivna1726]

Grivna, I come across an interesting reference on how these plates were sruck - note illustration 4.

 

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3746/pg0262yy.jpg

 

Thank you, gx. That is the "die punch array" (used to strike the plates all at once) that I mentioned in this thread. These were used for the grivny, which formed the bulk of the production.

 

I don't know if a similar, but larger die punch array was used for the polpoltina, poltina or ruble plates, or whether the stamps were applied individually. Certainly the larger punch size used to create the higher denominations (especially the ruble plates) would have required greater force to create the plates and, as previously mentioned, the lesser force required for the smaller plates was probably already straining the limits of the available technology at Ekaterinburg.

[Tiffibunny]

I love this thread. I find plate money fascinating.