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A post to LeGaulois - best copper coins I have...


gxseries
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I might have sounded a bit rude in an earlier post and this is an apology of what I caused. While keeping all the bad stories aside, I guess I should start off by showing what nice copper coins I have since that is what LeGaulois seem to collect? :lol:

 

Most of my coins are barely as nice as LeGaulois, or actually, not even close to what he is collecting. :ninja:

 

Strong Russian XF+ or aUNC, and in red are usually difficult to find for some reasons but I guess that is mainly due to Russia's long and cruel history at times.

 

 

And these are what I have...

 

1788 5 kopeks MM overstruck on 1762 10 kopeks

901736.jpg

 

1793 5 kopeks EM overstruck on 1796 10 kopeks

901737.jpg

 

1811 2 kopeks KM "chicken" type

901660.jpg

 

1814 1 kopek IM

901708.jpg

 

1834 10 kopeks EM-FX

904288.jpg

 

1854 1 kopek

904451.jpg

 

1878 2 kopeks

908145.jpg

 

1900 1/4 kopeks

908078.jpg

 

1909 1/2 kopeks

908089.jpg

 

Tane's definately got an impressive set of Paul I copper coins which I dare not to actively collect yet, as I have both Elverno and Tane "against" me :cry:

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Tane's definately got an impressive set of Paul I copper coins which I dare not to actively collect yet, as I have both Elverno and Tane "against" me :lol:

 

Hehee, thanks :cry: A little bit of competition makes things more exciting.

I have problems trying to find decent Catherine II coins, I've got only a few 5 kopeks so far. I 've been more succesfull with later imperial era :ninja:

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Nice.

 

I've heard, sort of off-hand, that a lot of the 1780s and 1790s 5 kopeks are actually counterfeits. Is that true or is that perhap someone misunderstanding the meaning of novodel?

 

I'm curious because it's sort of put me off buying from Russian (or Latvian or whatever) dealers because I'm leary of buying un-informed... (But I lust, I lust... :ninja: )

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I think there is a horrible mixup of the defination of novodels and counterfeits, and possibly other definations at the same time.

 

A novodel in short could be said generally as a restrike, except that it has a larger defination. One strict requirement of any novodel is that the dies must be exactly the same that was used to strike previously, which is also what restrike means. Most restrikes usually try to strike coins the same way as previously done before. On the other hand, a novodel could mean that a different type of planchet, or higher quality planchet, different edging, type of finish all make various contribution to the final strike of the new coin, and often struck at a later year. It can be a combination of the above I mentioned but another requirement is that it has to be done at a latter year.

 

A counterfeit is simple - all you need to understand is that not the same dies or actually non official mint dies were used to strike the coins. However, to make Russian numismatics ridiciously difficult, Swedish counterfeited 5 kopeks or the Russian counterfeited Turkish para actually do have significant values!!! I believe that the back reference of Uzedenikov mentions briefly about this.

 

But let's admit one point - quite a fair bit of "scarce" Russian coppers on eBay are counterfeits sadly. Most of the time, such "claimed" copper patterns are nothing more than what the metal planchet value should be, unless you would like it as a filler in your collection.

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I appreciate the info. There are a few patterns on the Bay right now that are selling low because the seller believes them to be novodels. Frankly they look as if they could be genuine, there is the moderate amount of wear one would expect from 200 year old coins, whether patterns or otherwise.

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Elverno, its possible that some people consider a Novodel a counterfeit.

 

At the risk of a newbie lecturing in the Russian Forum, a brief quote from "The Copper Coinage of Imperial Russia".

 

"At the beginning, the idea was to furnish museums and other official institutions with complete collections of older coins, but soon leading collectors with the right connections could also obtain either a speciman that could no longer be found, or just one in uncirculated condition.

One can only assume that the mint used old original dies for the strikings and that there were sometimes more than one die for the same coin. However, the mints also made new dies from old coins, or even from illustrations if no old coins were available".

 

It goes on to talk about the fantasy pieces that were also made up as a special order for enterprising collectors. For instance, the 5 Kopek 1757 EM, a "pure fantasy piece" and one that "is nonexistant in legitimate Russian numismatics".

 

Well, folks might want to consider these counterfeit but I believe the market has adjusted over the years to include them.

 

I'd be interested in knowing if there is a counterfeit problem with Russian coins. Is it possible that original dies have fallen into, shall we say, accomodating hands?

 

Ed to add- I'm sorry, I skipped right over GXseries fine post-you answered some of my questions right there.

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Very nice coins, gx. The 1788/62 and 1793/96 piatak overstrikes are nice ones and the wings down 10k type usually shows up in horrible condition. Your 1834 is an especially nice example.

 

A key point regarding novodels is that they were all officially struck in the Russian mint with the knowledge and approval of the government.

 

The unscrupulous sellers try to pass off fakes as "novodels" by deliberately confusing the issue. Things made privately in someone's garage or basement workshop are fakes, not novodels.

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  • 4 years later...

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