The Middles Ages

[mmarotta]

Discussing Ancient and Modern Linkages, Aetheling wrote:

I have concentrated my interests in medieval France around the series because the evolution of the portrait and its continued abstraction over the next several hundred years makes for an excellent study of artistic evolution, political maneuvering, and feudal economics.

 

I also have a set I have been working on ahead of an article: coins of Troyes. My motivation is to study the great fairs. Broadly -- and perhaps incorrectly for I am at work and the books are at home -- Hugh of Champaign went to the crusades and when he returned, he saw the benefits in the annual summer fairs at Troyes. He enlarged the grounds, and cleared the roads, and encouraged the merchants. Eventually three fairs were held, one still in Troyes, two others nearby. Troyes became a center of Jewish learning.

 

That was all fine for about two full generations. Four rulers later, the king of France took the young Thibault IV off the wars in the Holy Land and in the process the king took over the county and moved the fairs to Paris, where they whithered and died of taxation.

 

Another aspect of the great fairs was the origin of "first courts" or merchant courts. Merchants had great incentives to solve their own problems -- even though they all came from many different places and were thrown together temporarily. And certainly, the count wanted to stay out of the squabbles. Basically, like arbitration today -- as opposed to a government court with its punishment of the guilty -- a "fair court" met to re-establish balance and to restore equity, to bring people together if possible.

 

The fairs at Troyes were so popular that the Papacy copied the coins of Champaigne.

 

These fairs at Troyes gave us our measures for precious metals, "troy ounces."

[bill]

Interesting topic and one that certainly intersects with my interests in the Chartrain. I've not delved much into the economics as yet, but there are patterns in the appearance of issues from different mints in the region followed by long gaps, periods where obols are minted almost exclusively, etc. I assume that participation in the Crusades impacted activities in the various regions ass did the continuing power struggles between English and French kings. I know that fairs played into the local economic systems and patterns of coinage, but I've not read much about them. I look forward to your article and anything you care to share along the way.

[Ætheling]

I like the point Bill raised about English/French relations in this period. In France in the High Middle Ages you've got the French monarchs issuing Royal coinage of their own, you've got the English monarchs issuing coins in their French territories, such as those of Richard I. Then you've got the nobility issuing their coinage in each area. So Aquitane, Anjou etc. are all issuing their own coinage at this time. As nobles annex land from other nobles and as other individuals rise in status or get embroiled in wider European politics then you get coinages changing. So whilst Anjou under Fulk might be issuing coinage and England is issuing totally different coinage, but 1160 they're both under Henry II.

 

In the medieval period there is incredible diversity in some areas and as the period progresses smaller areas join together, and you head towards a unified country. It is in essence the making of a country unfolding before your eyes.

 

The same can be said for English coinage in the late 700s.

[2coins]

I dont know anythind on these old coins, but I lovem!!!, Some day Ill get some, I love history and alot was goin on at those times!!.

[Scottishmoney]

The same can be said for English coinage in the late 700s.

 

 

There are some pretty nice pieces of coinage from that era on the Triton sale recently, this is one of my personal favourites:

 

Mercia Penny

 

Hen Pecking Penny

[Ætheling]

Hmm hum... gorgeous!

 

I love both of 'em, coins of this period really draw me in. The first coin particulary so as it looks more medieval and the medieval look really floats my numismatic boat.

[Scottishmoney]

Hmm hum... gorgeous!

 

I love both of 'em, coins of this period really draw me in. The first coin particulary so as it looks more medieval and the medieval look really floats my numismatic boat.

 

 

I like the design, it has a mystical ambience that flows well into the overall coin. If I wasn't so taken with another Triton auction at the moment, that might be where I go, but I have Syracuse and Swedish interests that beckon me at the moment.

[mmarotta]

Mercia Penny

 

Hen Pecking Penny

 

I think that these reveal fascinating aspects and highlights of their context. Consider the Mercia Penny first. There is no image on it, just words, and some sparse symbols. Therefore, I believe that the makers expected that whoever held it could read. Even Roman coins transmitted the messages with imagery because literacy was not universal. Yet, here is a coin from the putative "Dark Ages" with no imagery.

 

The "Hen Pecking Penny" is obviously Celtic. I realize that it was struck at Wessex (West Saxons), but the die cutter was closely familiar with Celtic coins and purposely copied that style, as opposed to the Roman (or Romanesque) art that the die cutter probably knew as well.

 

You understand that the Hen Pecking Penny may have been meant to be viewed edge-on. Those dots in the field could line up to complete the 3-D projection. If the coin were truly an ancient Celtic, that would be expected. As a copy of a style, it might or might not follow.

[bill]

Hen Pecking Penny - Anna Gannon, in her study Iconography of Early Anglo Saxon Coinage, notes that the form of the design creates a spiral effect well suited to the shape of a coin. This spiral effect is certainly present in many Celtic designs. She further proposes that the bird image is a peacock (others in the series H have feathers that end in circles with central dots). While peacocks were not a local bird and were likely unknown to most Anglo-Saxons, there is a peacock in the Book of Kells and the peacock was a Christian symbol of immortality and the resurrection in early manuscripts and other religious imagery. She proposes that the die cutters were likely familiar with a wider range of imagery that then traditional man on the street and adapted these images into forms more familiar locally.

 

What a wonderful coin.

[mmarotta]

...  Anna Gannon ... proposes that the bird image is a peacock ...

 

So, we would not be surprised, upon rotating the coin, and viewing it edge-on, if the dots in the field under the neck, re-align into eyes behind the body, as elements of the plumage?

[bill]

So, we would not be surprised, upon rotating the coin, and viewing it edge-on, if the dots in the field under the neck, re-align into eyes behind the body, as elements of the plumage?

 

I would love to give it a try. Its an interesting coin and worthy of closer viewing, the kind of coin that can keep me occupied for hours. Is anyone bidding and wiling to share the results of the experiment when you are successful?

[jlueke]

I would love to give it a try. Its an interesting coin and worthy of closer viewing, the kind of coin that can keep me occupied for hours. Is anyone bidding and wiling to share the results of the experiment when you are successful?

 

I think you need to bid on this one, you did bring it up

[GDJMSP]

Just curious guys - how would you define the medieval period ? By that I mean when did it start and when did it end ? And don't give me answers like - with this style of coinage or that style of coinage - I mean dates - years.

 

I'll go first, but am curious to see if your answers are similar to mine.

 

Start - 900

Finish - 1501

[Ian]

From the fall of the Roman Empire (with the death of Theodosius in 395 AD) through to the late 15th century (Italian Renaissance).

 

Ian

[Scottishmoney]

For me it is when the Romans left Britannia in 411 AD and ended when QEI ascended the throne in 1558.

[Ætheling]

Varies from place to place but in Western Europe medieval generally falls between 400-1500.

 

More specifically in England it's generally as follows;

 

411 CE - 1066 would be the Dark Ages and Saxon period (some call it medieval but i'm inclined to think medieval is later).

 

1066-1100 is early medieval

1100-1300 is the High Middle Ages (middle middle)

1301-1485 is the late medieval period.

 

With the Tudors in 1485 England moves into the Early Modern, or at least starts to move into Early Modern, the last break with the medieval past is in 1529 when England breaks with Rome. From then on it's early modern through to c.1750 when the Industrial Revolution starts and then it's modern thereafter.

 

 

France finally leaves the medieval period in the early 1600s with Henri IV's reign, be it with his accession in the very late 1500s or his assasination. Whatever date you decide on with France, Henri's successor Louis XIII and Richelieu mark a turning point. Of course throughout the 1500s the Renaissance and the Reformations are having their impact upon the country so early modern vibes are break through, but France is in turmoil with wars both external and internal and is trying to cling onto the medieval past. Whereas the monarchs of England were fast trying to ditch the past because it didn't quite support their view of how it should be, bye bye abbeys and monasteries and female monarchs a plenty... decidedly not medieval.

 

France stays in the early modern period until 1789-92 when it shifts into the modern sphere.

 

 

So the dates are fairly fluid as things don't just change overnight.

[Scottishmoney]

Just curious guys - how would you define the medieval period ? By that I mean when did it start and when did it end ? And don't give me answers like - with this style of coinage or that style of coinage - I mean dates - years.

 

I'll go first, but am curious to see if your answers are similar to mine.

 

Start - 900

Finish - 1501

 

 

Actually the medieval period is still with us, think Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia etc and then it comes into place.

[jlueke]

Just curious guys - how would you define the medieval period ? By that I mean when did it start and when did it end ? And don't give me answers like - with this style of coinage or that style of coinage - I mean dates - years.

 

I'll go first, but am curious to see if your answers are similar to mine.

 

Start - 900

Finish - 1501

 

For a generic History 101 type answer this is as good as any:

 

Middle Ages

The period in European history between antiquity and the Renaissance, often dated from A.D. 476 to 1453.

 

476 AD would be the year of the sacking of Rome by the Goths.

1453 would be the year of the sacking of Constantinople by the Ottomans.

 

Basically the Middle Ages is the period between Antiquity and the Renaissance. It logically should only apply to the areas controlled by Rome and some of the border regions.

 

Some noteworthy dates I remember about the period

 

721 and 732 the muslim armies of Cordoba are defeated on Gaul limiting the expansion of the Caliphate into Europ

 

800 Charlemagne Holy Roman Emperor

 

1053 Great Schism between the True Church and the Hellbound

 

1066 French Vikings conquer English Saxons

 

1095 The Crusades Begin

 

 

I like 1453 as an ending because it is also close to when the printing press was invented. Ultimately, the spread of secular knowledge is what ushered in the Renaissance and the end of the Middle Ages.

[Ætheling]

See none of use have given the same set of dates, although they all fall in the same kinda period. (Western Europe only), of course if you go further east the picture changes.

[mmarotta]

I'll go first, but am curious to see if your answers are similar to mine.

Start - 900

Finish - 1501

 

What do you mean by "similar'? Aetheling and jlueke have similar ideas on this, with the former being Anglo-centric and that's fair. I agree with Jorg that the middle ages are the years between antiquity and the modern world. I also agree with the idea of marking that with the fall of Rome and then the fall of Constantinople. That is appropriate in many ways.

 

Within that, I mark the Dark Ages as running from 476 (or 411, if you will) until 800, when Charlemagne was crowned Holy Roman Emperor. 800-1066 (or 1089) would mark the early middle ages and then to 1350 for the High Middle Ages.

 

The late middle ages run into The Renaissance. By 1350, you have Petrarch and Dante and by 1453, the printing press and 1492 Columbus. The middle ages have to end with Columbus. The world was no longer the same. The Renaissance runs from the late middle ages through the age of discovery and ends with the Thirty Years War.

 

The Thirty Years War is like the page of a book: you can look at one side or the other, but there is nothing along the edge. In 1618, Europe was one way and in 1648, it was another way. Consider the American experience. In 1620, the Pilgrims were a huddled, starving mass. By 1652 they were striking their own coins and conquering their neighbors and pretending to be independent of England.

 

Considering the middle ages, realize that the barbarian raids had only just subsided in 1066 when in the next generation, European launched a crusade to take Jerusalem. In that light, I could go with the victory of 732 as the end of the Dark Ages: "Martel's Franks, virtually all infantry without armour, managed to withstand mailed horsemen, without the aid of bows or firearms, a feat of arms unheard of in medieval history." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Martel)

[jlueke]

See none of use have given the same set of dates, although they all fall in the same kinda period. (Western Europe only), of course if you go further east the picture changes.

Yes the East, or Middle East is another story. It seems to me that in the Muslim Lands the middle or dark ages ended much more quickly. The 7th century Arab tribesmen seem no more advanced than the contemporary Franks, Lombards or Avars, but by the 12th century the Muslim Caliphate clearly was in a better place regarding knowledge and science than the West. Is there a clear break where the old Roman and Persian cultures superceded the early tribal state?

 

What of Anatolia? Was it an archaic anachronism?

[bill]

Wow, sign off, shower, eat breakfast, sit on the highway for half an hour waiting to skirt a slide, pay bills, and discover everyone else is on line talking about dates. It seems everyone is enjoying the holiday.

 

I agree with everything that has been said, but tending towards the very general events to define time periods (end of Roman Empire, etc.) while realizing my view is Euro-centric because that is what I collect. Whether the term medieval has any meaning outside the European and Islamic cultures is a separate question. I looked at a medieval atlas recently that covers the world, but it does so by time periods (looking at the world in the fifth century, sixth century, etc.). It covers the world, but using the concept of the European medieval period.

 

So, my answer would be the fifth through fifteenth centuries (a convenient Griersonesque answer).

[GDJMSP]

I'll go first, but am curious to see if your answers are similar to mine.

Start - 900

Finish - 1501

 

What do you mean by "similar'?

 

Within that, I mark the Dark Ages as running from 476 (or 411, if you will) until 800, when Charlemagne was crowned Holy Roman Emperor. 800-1066 (or 1089) would mark the early middle ages and then to 1350 for the High Middle Ages.

 

The late middle ages run into The Renaissance. By 1350, you have Petrarch and Dante and by 1453, the printing press and 1492 Columbus. The middle ages have to end with Columbus. The world was no longer the same. The Renaissance runs from the late middle ages through the age of discovery and ends with the Thirty Years War.

 

 

LOL !! - I meant just that Michael, similar. And as luck would have it, your's is the only one even remotely "similar" to mine

 

As for the rest of you guys, I look at like this, we have basic time periods referred to by names - Ancient, Dark Ages, Medieval, Renaissance & Modern. If the medieval period starts in the 400's - when did the dark ages occur ? I was always taught that the dark ages began with the fall of the Roman Empire - late 400's. So then the question becomes - when did the dark ages end ? Some say, with Charlemagne and the beginning of the Holy Roman Empire. I could agree with that to a large extent, but because in that time period it took so long for changes to really occur, there are also those who would place the beginning of the medieveal period approx 100 years after that. For it was only then that the medieval system was really in place throughtout Europe.

 

So even though I hold I great deal of respect for Professor Grierson, I strongly disagree with his outlook that the medieval period began in the 5th century.

[jlueke]

What do you mean by "similar'?

 

Within that, I mark the Dark Ages as running from 476 (or 411, if you will) until 800, when Charlemagne was crowned Holy Roman Emperor. 800-1066 (or 1089) would mark the early middle ages and then to 1350 for the High Middle Ages.

 

The late middle ages run into The Renaissance. By 1350, you have Petrarch and Dante and by 1453, the printing press and 1492 Columbus. The middle ages have to end with Columbus. The world was no longer the same. The Renaissance runs from the late middle ages through the age of discovery and ends with the Thirty Years War.

 

If the medieval period starts in the 400's - when did the dark ages occur ? I was always taught that the dark ages began with the fall of the Roman Empire - late 400's. So then the question becomes - when did the dark ages end ? Some say, with Charlemagne and the beginning of the Holy Roman Empire. I could agree with that to a large extent, but because in that time period it took so long for changes to really occur, there are also those who would place the beginning of the medieveal period approx 100 years after that. For it was only then that the medieval system was really in place throughtout Europe.

 

So even though I hold I great deal of respect for Professor Grierson, I strongly disagree with his outlook that the medieval period began in the 5th century.

 

When you get into some detail you have to become much more precise in definitions. To me the dark ages are a part of the middle ages. If I had to come up with some definitions they'd look like this:

 

Dark Ages: Marked by a loss of knowledge in arts and science. Very weak or absent central governments, very little stability, pure rule by might. Here I'd use the 476 AD date of the sacking of Rome. Trade is virtually absent

 

Middle Ages: Stability begins to return. The unifiying force is Christianity, the power of the church is equal to or greater than that of the secular powers. Dogma and stasis are the price of increased stability. Secular arts and science continue to suffer. Trade is quite sparse though improved locally. I would say the peak of this period would be 1095 when the Crusades are launched at the behest of the pope. The beginning could be dated to Charlemagne since the Holy Roman Empire did begin and lay the basis for some future stability. This period began to dwindle in the 13th century as the Crusaded wound up and trade and new ideas increased. So one could create a Late Middle Ages period that would run into the Renaissance.

 

 

Renaissance: The beginning of the return of some secular themes into art and a rebirth of science though both still subservient to the religious. Trade increases dramatically creating the burgeosie. I'll go with Michael and end this in with the 30 years war. The starting point of 1453 is a little akward but as good as any, the reality was of course fluid.

 

After this we go to Baroque, Enlightenment, and then the Modern Industrial age.

[jlueke]

Just curious guys - how would you define the medieval period ? By that I mean when did it start and when did it end ? And don't give me answers like - with this style of coinage or that style of coinage

But really, the art does reflect the change in society. Whether in coin portraiture or music the historical changes are reflected and can be studied in the art.

 

Musically there are very distinct changes from Medieval to Renaissance, to Baroque, Classical, then Beethoven and Stravinsky.