Ian Posted December 29, 2005 Report Share Posted December 29, 2005 Firstly, a nice coin acquisition you have made Bill. I'm envious Quick question though, as to the `Louis IV' image.... isn't that Lothaire as opposed to Louis IV (?) On the Louis IV portrait coin I know of from Chinon the bust is much fatter and a bit more abstract and carries the legend `LUDOVICUS REX'. Presumably the legend on the obverse being put there to tie in the portrait as being that of the current king at the time since it was the first new regal portrait to appear on a french coin for over 100 years. You probably have much more data on that than I do though (I don't have a copy of Poet D'Avant on hand) so i'd appreciate any data you can provide. I do know that there was a portrait issue for Lothaire at Chinon but don't have an image of it. Does Poet D'avant provide any? It's strange but for me the abstract image of Eudes reminds me vaguely of the tribal coinage of the Aedui (Auvergne area) just before and around the time of Julius Caesar. Again, simplistic but definitive design and artistry. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlueke Posted December 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2005 Those are some nice coins Bill. Those two would be excellent additions for me as well, the change they show is fantastic. I am glad the types aren't all too expensive either; while patience is a virtue it is fun to buy at least a few coins now and then. I will add these to my list as one of the many branches of design. Hopefully, over time, I will at least be able to go two layers deep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmarotta Posted December 30, 2005 Report Share Posted December 30, 2005 I think that this coin speaks volumes:http://www.khm.at/system2E.html?/staticE/page631.html Compare that one from 1150 AD with this one from 1550: http://www.money.org/AM/Images//charles5osm3.jpg Now tell me, which one is "medieval" and which is "Renaissance" or "Classical" or whatever... It reminds me of the proposed Dollar coin from Gasparro of the Flowing Hair design. The comment here from Jorge -- yea said as well by others --that it was th coin that should have been. I disagree. The Flowing Hair motif is from an earlier time. As much as we like those classic American type coins, we have to leave them behind and embrace a graphical vocabulary for the current century Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlueke Posted December 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2005 I think that this coin speaks volumes:http://www.khm.at/system2E.html?/staticE/page631.html It reminds me of the proposed Dollar coin from Gasparro of the Flowing Hair design. The comment here from Jorge -- yea said as well by others --that it was th coin that should have been. I disagree. The Flowing Hair motif is from an earlier time. As much as we like those classic American type coins, we have to leave them behind and embrace a graphical vocabulary for the current century I agree in general that the coinage designs of the past belong there, I'm sure if we let them, today's artists could do better. However, the SBA and Sacagawea are bad enough that I rather see an old idea rehashed than a bad new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted December 30, 2005 Report Share Posted December 30, 2005 Quick question though, as to the `Louis IV' image.... isn't that Lothaire as opposed to Louis IV (?) On the Louis IV portrait coin I know of from Chinon the bust is much fatter and a bit more abstract and carries the legend `LUDOVICUS REX'. Presumably the legend on the obverse being put there to tie in the portrait as being that of the current king at the time since it was the first new regal portrait to appear on a french coin for over 100 years. You probably have much more data on that than I do though (I don't have a copy of Poet D'Avant on hand) so i'd appreciate any data you can provide. I do know that there was a portrait issue for Lothaire at Chinon but don't have an image of it. Does Poet D'avant provide any? Depeyrot lists a single portrait coin from Chinon with Lothaire's name, but provides no illustration, weight, etc. He cites Brussels as the location of the coin. The coin is not in Poey d'Avant. The coin I included is more appropriately cataloged as Chinon-Tours, but it is one of several versions of ostensibly the same design. The Tours issues have Tours on the obverse with the bust. The Chinon issues have Louis's name. Both are typically listed as examples of the original designs in the stylistic evolution. Belaubre shows the Tours coin as the first in the series, the Louis coin of Chinon as the second. My preference is the Tours coin as the Fecamp hoard has examples of both plus a Tours inscribed coin where the bust is clearly rendered much as the bust on the later deniers of Bois. New finds could change this history once again, but that is the current state of evolution of the designs as I understand them today. (By the way, there are two early Vendôme deniers that fit in this early sequence as well.) I've just started pulling my research notes together in an attempt to better understand these coins. I've got about 25 in my collection as of now and have finally reached a point where I can start trying to understand what I'm reading while refering to real coins. Its far from comprehensive, but enough variety to begin testing some ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted December 30, 2005 Report Share Posted December 30, 2005 Thanks for the data Bill. Just so everyone can see what we are talking about in relation to some of the Carolingian portrait coinage, here's links to scans I have made from Jim Roberts book purely for this educational purpose. I'll keep the links open for 24 hrs. The first is those of Charlemagne The second is those of Louis the Pious The third is the only one I was aware of from Chinon mint. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ætheling Posted December 30, 2005 Report Share Posted December 30, 2005 I received an example of the Eudes II denier yesterday that I purchased in Jean Elsen's Auction 86. I have concentrated my interests in medieval France around the series because the evolution of the portrait and its continued abstraction over the next several hundred years makes for an excellent study of artistic evolution, political maneuvering, and feudal economics. There are several earlier stages in the evolution of Louis into the abstract portrait, but the Edues II denier is stylistically close to the first issue of Blois a few years earlier. All the early coins in the series are very rare to unique, but some are collectible. The denier pictured below is the most expensive purchase I've made in the series (under $1,000) with other equally rare pieces running a few hundred dollars to less than $100 (not many specialize in this topic). I included the illustration above because the toning/corrosion on the obverse somewhat obscures the protrait. To my eye, these are beautiful coins for the simplicity of the basic punches made to produce the image and the wonderfully abstract result. The image paid service to the legitimacy of the royal lineage (and thereby the local political legitimacy of the count), while the abstract imagery maintained a distance that supported local independence from the royal crown. It was a delicate balance to maintain. While my topic is specialized in a relatively narrow time and space, your broader interest should make for a fascinating collection and sample of artistic norms across different cultures and times. Now you are getting closer to my kinda thing... the mention of Blois dragged me out of my ivory tower. That bottom coin with it's abstract imagery looks not unlike the coins being produced in other places in Northern Europe a century or so later. You're getting real close to dragging me into this thread... cue to Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted December 31, 2005 Report Share Posted December 31, 2005 That bottom coin with it's abstract imagery looks not unlike the coins being produced in other places in Northern Europe a century or so later. You're getting real close to dragging me into this thread... cue to Ian. Oh...go on then. Stephen..where art thou? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ætheling Posted December 31, 2005 Report Share Posted December 31, 2005 Ah Steve's alright, it's the other one you've not got to get me started on... Steve will be along shortly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted December 31, 2005 Report Share Posted December 31, 2005 Ah Steve's alright, it's the other one you've not got to get me started on... Steve will be along shortly. I thought I would start at the top though ....after all he does have a nice portrait once you suss it out.... Blois Humbug! Pah Winchester! A pox upon thee Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ætheling Posted December 31, 2005 Report Share Posted December 31, 2005 I thought I would start at the top though ....after all he does have a nice portrait once you suss it out.... Blois Humbug! Pah Winchester! A pox upon thee Ian You leave my bishop friend alone... d'yer hear? Well i don't think much to the red background experiment i did. My computer screen is also set on dark it seems, so it might look a bit 'pasty' on everyone else's. Either that or my monitor at work is set far, far too bright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmarotta Posted January 1, 2006 Report Share Posted January 1, 2006 ... my collecting interests (they include Celtic iconography, visual perception in prehistoric art, etc.). But ... I received an example of the Eudes II denier yesterday that I purchased in Jean Elsen's Auction 86. What does it look like when you view it edge-on? Do those outsized lips take on a different appearance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 What does it look like when you view it edge-on?Do those outsized lips take on a different appearance? No, nothing there. The relief is really too low for much to happen. Your post did get me looking a little closer at my Celtic pieces. Nothing surprising on most of them that I didn't already know. I did take a close look at a piece of the Bellovaci, 1st century B.C., running man style. My piece does not match any shown in the catalogs that I have. Its not surprising since the coin appears in many different minor varities. Despite the fact that I've photographed it (I need to give it one more go before I'm ready post an image) and studying it, I've always been trying to link it up with a catalog entry. The running man is surrounded by annulets or rings and has a braid draped down the back of the head. He's running towards another annulet and beaded design (or so I've always thought), but on closer inspection as I turned it in the light, I realized I was looking at a bird. Its easy to see now and very obvious, but I never noticed it before. Its a good lesson to sometimes break convention in how we look at our coins in order to be able to really see them. I'm reminded of some Chumash rock art sites in southern California (one of my areas of specialty in prehistoric art). At a site called Condor Cave, there is a painting in red and white of a frog with long antennae. It is very static, upper legs straight up, lower legs straight down. But, its painted in a curved pocket in the sandstone. Step to one side and look again, it is leaping off the rock, an active rather than static image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmarotta Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 So, Jorge -- love the new avatar -- what does that look like when you rotate it and look at it edge-on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlueke Posted January 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 So, Jorge -- love the new avatar -- what does that look like when you rotate it and look at it edge-on? Well now it looks the same to me either way. Turning it on edge did help me see the lips and the face better. but I think it's pretty clear. What do you see? If the celtic coin I got was fully struck I think the second eye would be visible edge on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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