Seated Lib. Dollar with Rotated Reverse?

[Fjord]

Purhcased this coin off of ebay recently:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=8360947980

 

I receive the coin, drop it in the Dansco and notice something. The coin has medal orientation, maybe the eagle's head is 5-10 O'Clock relative to liberty's. Ordinarily I'd be 'hey cool!' but I am aware that there are many fake dollar coins out there (although trade and bust seems to be the most common fake)

 

Any known examples of this, or do I likely have a fake?

 

I'll be weighing the coin on monday. Anyone have other info about the w/motto dollars, such as number of reeds, or other diagnostic features I can use to authenticate it?

 

thanks for any advice and help.

 

--

Fjord

[LostDutchman]

I have never seen an authentic one with medal orientation....my best guess is it that is a fake....

 

take a look at the surfiace with a loupe...look for very small pits...

there is a slight chance it could be an error with a 180 degree rotated die....but with all the fakes I have seen I doubt it...does the seller have a return policy???

 

If you have a question about the coin....return it and find one that you are %100 about or your always going to have doubt..

[Scottishmoney]

It has the colouring suggestive of having been minted recently in a land across the Pacific Ocean, however I have not seen the piece in person and am only going on your image.

 

And BTW SL Dollars are commonly faked also, and recently Peace and Morgans are starting to turn up.

[Fjord]

I have never seen an authentic one with medal orientation....my best guess is it that is a fake....

 

take a look at the surfiace with a loupe...look for very small pits...

there is a slight chance it could be an error with a 180 degree rotated die....but with all the fakes I have seen I doubt it...does the seller have a return policy???

 

If you have a question about the coin....return it and find one that you are %100 about or your always going to have doubt..

 

I'll look for pits - i think the weight will be a good diagnostic. As to a return policy...

 

I generally check, and just didn't bother this time. potentially very costly oversight on my part, but I haven't talked to the seller, he may take it back.

 

Do any of the services authentic without slabbing? ANACS, PCGS, and IGC don't seem to.

[Becky]

NCS will. They are the NGC conservation company.

[Conder101]

ANACS will authenticate without grading but it costs the same. Just mark authenticate only on the invoice.

 

I seem to recall that there was at least one date in which a 180 degree rotation existed but I don't know what year it was on.

 

I have to admit that if this is a fake it is much better than most that you see on eBay. I think the weight is going to be important.

[ccg]

From the pic, my main concern is that the rim on the SL side looks rough.

[mmarotta]

... Any known examples of this, or do I likely have a fake? ...  Anyone have other info about the w/motto dollars ...

 

Doing your homework after the test is better than not doing it at all. Usually, we do our homework first.

 

For what you wasted on this piece of junk, you could have bought a copy of the Breen Encyclopedia and spent a night in a motel at an ANA convention.

 

For many collectors, the habit becomes an addiction that overrides reason. You just had to have the coin. You could not resist. You could not say "no." You gave in to a desire that you could not control.

 

If you were rational about collecting, if it were really just a hobby, you would save your money and go to conventions. Between major coin shows, you would make discrete and moderate purchases from trusted sources, ANA members, dealers from the clubs you belong to, and so on.

 

What clubs do you belong to?

 

Are you really participating in the hobby of numismatics, or are you pushing a cart down the aisle of big box store to satisfy a metaphysical emptiness?

 

If you can step away and take an objective look at the motivations of your actions, this will be the last time you were cheated.

[syzygy]

Doing your homework after the test is better than not doing it at all.  Usually, we do our homework first.

 

For what you wasted on this piece of junk, /- snip -/

 

Not much in your post that is constructive and you can do much better than that. IF it is fake, a mistake was made - let us all learn from it. You are, in my opinion, too harsh, and just a bit too arrogant in your reply - have you never believed you were getting a *great* deal, only to feel the sting of reality?

[mmarotta]

Not much in have you never believed you were getting a *great* deal, only to feel the sting of reality?

 

The matter is somewhat complicated.

 

(1) Yes, I have, many times. That is just one of many reasons why I quit collecting. You will find a thread on Coin Talk:

http://www.cointalk.org/thread11167-why-i-...collecting.html

 

but

 

(2) No, never, because I never expected something for nothing. Generally, I did not buy from unvalidated buyers.

 

(Some exceptions were specifically to test the hypothesis and true to form, they were rip-offs. As a writer, I take on a special responsibility.)

 

I have never bought anything on eBay.

 

I spend my money at ANA conventions or with trusted dealers.

 

With a research interest in ancients -- I am not a collector -- I patronize VCOINS dealers (www.vcoins.com).

 

For U.S. online, I would look to a hundred ANA members from Heritage to your neighborhood coin shop.

[whohah]

Mike,

 

Please accept the following with a light heart:

 

 

"Mike, uh, maybe you should switch to decaf for a while..."

 

 

I am only trying to 'tease' a smile from you.

 

A friend is someone who knows all about you and loves you anyway...

 

You always have thought provoking articles in these forums [CoinTalk & CoinPeople] that I always take time to read. I don't always agree; however, I appreciate the thought behind each of your missives.

 

I believe it was in Tom Robbins' "Jitterbug Perfume" wherein it was said:

 

"Ehrlecht Da!!"

 

I probably misspelled that; I believe it means "Lighten up!!"

 

Jay in Garrison, TX

"...always willing to learn..."

[Fjord]

Mike,

 

I'm not really sure what your point is, and you are presuming far too much about me. I really don't care for your speculations regarding my character or the comparisons to an unhappy person seeking to fill a void through materialistic purchases.

 

I expected an unremarkable coin, nothing more.

 

Had I known from the beginning that this coin had a rotated reverse, I would not have bid on it. If it fails the weight test tomorrow, I will be contacting the seller to return it.

 

If it passes the weight test tomorrow, I will be contacting the seller to discuss splitting the cost of having it authenticated, and if it's junk, my returning it.

 

If the seller is a jerk about this, I will be investigating what other recourses are available to me.

 

I am aware that every time I buy a coin off of ebay I am taking a risk because I cannot examine the coin for myself. So far consensus seems to be that it's a fake, but how many would have concluded this without knowing that the reverse was rotated?

 

I could argue that most of my coins come from coin club auctions, coin shows, (ANA and local coin clubs), and dealers here that I trust rather than ebay, but why bother? Undoubtedly you would find something else to criticize.

 

Are you really participating in the hobby of numismatics, or are you pushing a cart down the aisle of big box store to satisfy a metaphysical emptiness?

 

Don't you mean a big box store?

 

I am curious why you present the issue so starkly. Someone may not meet your definition of "participating in the hobby" while getting far more out of it than "pushing a cart down the aisle of [a] big box store to satisfy a metaphysical emptiness".

 

In answer to your question, I am putting together a type set of U.S. coins because I am interested in owning a set, I am interested in the history of U.S. coinage, and I find many of the designs of the last 200 years compelling. In assembling this set, I am learning about coin series that I did not even know existed. I also find the many details regarding coinage laws, practices, gaffes, and politics to be fascinating. This does have the nasty side effect of meaning I know a little about many coins, but not yet enough to be an expert on any of them.

 

Hence, I may have purchased a $200 turkey. In the future I'll be giving these coins the same gimlet eye that I had reserved for trade dollars.

 

Now, given the knowledge that your years in the field should afford you, I'd be greatly edified if you could point out to me what about the coin reveals its fakery.

[Scottishmoney]

For what you wasted on this piece of junk, you could have bought a copy of the Breen Encyclopedia and spent a night in a motel at an ANA convention.

 

 

If you were rational about collecting, if it were really just a hobby, you would save your money and go to conventions.  Between major coin shows, you would make discrete and moderate purchases from trusted sources, ANA members, dealers from the clubs you belong to, and so on.

 

What clubs do you belong to?

 

Are you really participating in the hobby of numismatics, or are you pushing a cart down the aisle of big box store to satisfy a metaphysical emptiness?

 

 

 

 

 

 

You have performed no great contribution to an otherwise wonderful hobby with such a missive and hopefully you will reflect upon it and duly retract it humbly so.

[jlueke]

If you were rational about collecting, if it were really just a hobby, you would save your money and go to conventions.  Between major coin shows, you would make discrete and moderate purchases from trusted sources, ANA members, dealers from the clubs you belong to, and so on.

 

I don't know about a hobby being rational rather than emotional but regardless the core of what Mik says here has merit. There is no substitute for buying a coin in person. Even the largest most prominent auction houses cannot accurately describe and picture every coin. Ebay is naturally much worse in terms of average picture quality. So I would agree that the best case is going to as large a show as possible.

 

But...not everyoen can go to the national shows. I am lucky this year to be able to get to the NY International but it is still costing a pretty penny. There are no chepa motels in or near Manhatten that I want to stay in.

 

Of course almost every community does have regional and local shows. Our Ancient Coin Club has several dealer members who will ensure you get good quality material.

 

If possible do go to local shows and local clubs, it will be worth it. I don't think that being in the ANA or any other single organization makes any difference, the personal contact is what counts.

 

If you must buy online do ask questions, do try to find reliable dealers with a real world presence, and do reward good service. If you are always looking for the best deal without regard for anything else then you will get burned. It's true in hotels and it's true in coins.

[Fjord]

Seller replied via ebay: If ANACS says it's a fake, he will refund my money.

 

So far, so good. on to step two.

[BiggAndyy]

Well, to talk about the coin for a moment, from the pics I am not very encouraged about it (but I am encouraged by your contact with the seller).

 

The shield details looks too detailed as compared to the weakness of the rest of the torso of the obverse device.

 

As far as learning lessons, a couple of hundred bucks isn't a tremendously expensive lesson both in cautions in online auctions and in seeking help from internet forums. Both can bite you

[Art]

I think the coin can be fake or real -- certainly without a particular diagnostic it's anybody's guess. I hope that it is real and that you've made a good purchase. It sounds to me as though you have covered the bases with the seller and so your financial exposure is minimal. Good job there.

 

One of the nice things about coin collecting is that it is an individual hobby. Each collector gets to define what their particular collection will be. They do not have to comply with another's rules. Go forth and enjoy YOUR hobby.

[28Plain]

Seller replied via ebay: If ANACS says it's a fake, he will refund my money. 

 

So far, so good.  on to step two.

You may want to just take it to a dealer you trust to see what he'd offer for it. Someone who has handled a lot of Seated dollars would be able to spot a fake pretty quickly with the coin in hand.

 

It's hard to tell much from the pics in the auction but the seller has solid feedback from buyers and sellers both. I wouldn't be overly worried at this point if I were you. If it's an expensive lesson, at least it wasn't an extremely expensive lesson. Lessons learned at the expense of money, blood or hide are usually valuable lessons.

 

P.S., ignore Mike when he gets pedantic. A stranger's opinion of your motives is apt to be worth a little less than it cost you to read it. ;-)

[SlavicScott]

You just had to have the coin.  You could not resist.  You could not say "no."  You gave in to a desire that you could not control.

 

 

Michael E. Marotta

MSNS 7935

ANA R-162953

ANS 11421

 

 

With all those fancy letters and numbers that you are so pompously proud of, why do I not see you glorious degree in psychology?? Since you seem to think you are expertly qualified to make these accusations about Fjord, then provide some credentials to show your expertise.

And before you ask, no I do not belong to the Mich St. Numismatic Society, nor the ANA, nor any other organization. The only club/organization that I would even consider joining, I haven't because they do not issue their newsletter or web-site in English, and my Serbian is not up to snuff, yet.

[Fjord]

The great weigh-in results are here.

 

Seated Lib. Dollar Weight according to The Redbook, Coinfacts.com, etc:

 

26.73 grams.

 

My Dollar Weight:

 

23.65 grams

 

Seated Lib. Dollar Diameter according to ibid.:

 

38.1 mm

 

My Dollar Diameter:

 

37.95 mm

 

Fakety fake fake fake.

 

The diameter might be "ok", we're talking about a .4% difference. The weight? Over 10% difference from expected. Unlikely. However, if someone has specific details on the weight tolerances of these coins I'll be in your debt.

 

Now I have the heebie jeebies about the Trade Dollar I purchased at the ANA convention. I'll weigh that fellow tomorrow.

 

I have half a mind to send this coin to ANACs to see what the result is. I'll contact the seller to see how he wants to proceed.

[Art]

Thanks for keeping us in the loop.

[jlueke]

The great weigh-in results are here.

 

  Seated Lib. Dollar Weight according to The Redbook, Coinfacts.com, etc:

 

  26.73 grams.

 

My Dollar Weight:

 

  23.65 grams

 

Seated Lib. Dollar Diameter according to ibid.:

 

  38.1 mm

 

My Dollar Diameter:

 

  37.95 mm

 

Fakety fake fake fake.

 

The diameter might be "ok", we're talking about a .4% difference.  The weight?  Over 10% difference from expected.  Unlikely.  However, if someone has specific details on the weight tolerances of these coins I'll be in your debt. 

 

Now I have the heebie jeebies about the Trade Dollar I purchased at the ANA convention. I'll weigh that fellow tomorrow.

 

I have half a mind to send this coin to ANACs to see what the result is.  I'll contact the seller to see how he wants to proceed.

 

I measured a bunch of silver quarters as part of a control group a few months ago. The tolerances were quite low per batch of coins but individual coins did vary a fair amount. I'll have to check how much though I think it was still less than 10%.

 

Can you get the specific gravity (weight of the coin in water). If that's closer to 9 than 10 then you definitely have a base metal fake.

[Scottishmoney]

Thanks for sharing your information with us. I knowingly purchased a Chinese fake 1847 SL Dollar earlier this year to study it. I then gave it to my daughter for her collection. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I suspected your piece was a forgery because of the colouring, it is very similar to my daughter's coin. They mostly seem to have a dullish grey tone to them.

 

I have two authentic SL$'s, one an 1843, and the other a very well beaten up 1859-O that looks like it got shot up during the Civil War in the USA.

[28Plain]

I have half a mind to send this coin to ANACs to see what the result is.  I'll contact the seller to see how he wants to proceed.

 

If he said he'd only refund your money if ANACS said it was a fake, you may have to send it to ANACS anyway. Sorry to hear the bad news of the light weight. The amount of the difference sounds like it's too high to be ordinary variance.

[Guest Stujoe]

I was hoping for better news for you but, if that weight is accurate (ie: your scale is good and calibrated down to that range), I think there is not a lot of hope.

 

At this point, since it is looking more and more fake, I'd probably tap it with a pencil to see if it even rings like silver.