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Hi,

Just purchased a few siberian copper coins some of which have just arrived, but more to follow. Will post images when they are all in my possession.

One of them is a 2 kopek coin dated 1767 in relatively high grade..so good that i'm a wee bit suspicious.I have no knowledge of `novodels' and there doesn't appear to be any for this date. However I'm pretty sure its from the right period concerned....but then again, who knows?

I don't think circulation coins had edge lettering....The edge on this one is however lettered (large) and there's some cross `+' shapes between the words. If I have got the translation from cyrillic right it says :

E Medv E kolyvanskaya. (Kolyvansk mint?) There is evidence of die cracks on both obv and rev of coin. it probably translates to `hey mug...this is a copy made in China' but this old fool still lives in hope that there is indeed a numismatic god who occasionally looks favourably on me.......

can anyone in this forum advise? 

BTW its weighing in at 13.15 grams

 

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Hello Ian

These Siberian 2 kopeks exist as novodel as well. Weight looks to be correct.

The inscription on the edge says: "coper Kolyvanskaya" meaning coins are made from copper mined from the Kolyvan mines (in Siberia).

To be able to say more need to see the photos. 

 

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Hi. Thanks for that. I won't be able to post pics until tomorrow at the earliest. The only date i was aware of for a  Siberian 2 kopek novodel is 1764., but this one looks very real, and my knowledge of Russian coins (like my ability to speak Russian) is at best `sketchy' :)

Will post pics of this one, a 5 kopek circulation coin, a 5 kopek novodel, a 10 kopec circulation coin and (possibly) a 10 kopek novodel in the next couple of days.

I will also dig out some very high grade 5 kopek coins from Aninsk mint that I have in my collection and post here.

cheers

Ian

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They do look odd in comparison to normal circulation strikes. Fortunatley, they didn't cost me that much in the first place (probably cost more to send them back) so worth the `punt' .....they will do until something `real' comes along :).

However, it's not often that you find die cracks on modern replica's though. The 2 kopeks has prominent examples on both obv and rev. Never seen this on large copper items before now

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OK, my latest (and last) addition to my Siberian copper puppies!...for now at least.

This one is a beautiful large slug of copper in the shape of a 10 kopeks coin dated 1768 with the KM mint mark. It weighs in at 62 grams and has a close oblique reeded edge. 

 

Siberia 1768 10K obv.jpg

Siberia 1768 10K rev.jpg

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On 1/23/2021 at 5:04 PM, Ian said:

OK here's the 2 kopek `novodel'

Siberia 1767 novodel 2K obv.jpg

Siberia 1767 novodel 2K rev.jpg

Hello Ian, 

I have to disappoint you, but this looks as Chinese souvenir. 

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On 1/23/2021 at 5:06 PM, Ian said:

...and here's a 5 kopek `novodel' (weighs in ar 21.6 grams). Plain edge

Siberia 1764 novodel 5K obv.jpg

Siberia 1764 novodel 5K rev.jpg

Same, also Chinese souvenir 

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On 1/28/2021 at 1:58 PM, Ian said:

OK, my latest (and last) addition to my Siberian copper puppies!...for now at least.

This one is a beautiful large slug of copper in the shape of a 10 kopeks coin dated 1768 with the KM mint mark. It weighs in at 62 grams and has a close oblique reeded edge. 

 

Siberia 1768 10K obv.jpg

Siberia 1768 10K rev.jpg

And this one is also Chinese souvenir. I hop you didn't spent much for these souvenirs.   

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49 minutes ago, ViFi said:

And this one is also Chinese souvenir. I hop you didn't spent much for these souvenirs.   

Hi.

I'm not exactly sure what they are to be honest, hence my posting here.

I have no reference manual or bona fide samples of Russian `Novodels' to compare them against, unlike the many other coins in my collection.

I have however made a point of studying counterfeits / copies over the past 45 years....everything from ancients through to modern. In doing so i have saved a fortune...and amassed a fair collection of fakes /counterfeits / replica's / souvenirs /copies (call them what you will)

When buying items outside of my normal area of expertise i expect to (sometimes) `pay' for my ignorance. i make the occsaional `mistake'. I do however try to keep such incidences to a minimum by using my reference materials....and learning from said `mistakes'

You say these items are Chinese in origin. However, I am not so sure. The chinese fakes i've come upon are good (and getting better) but these don't seem to me to be from China. I would be happy to be educated if you could be so kind as provide me with some insight as to what has made you reach your conclusion? 

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Hello Ian, 

By saying Chinese souvenir I would not like to say items are really made in China. It is just common wording, however lot of modern fakes come from China. I'm not specialist in fake coins and can't say for sure when do they were made. But it looks specially for 2 first coins that replicas are quite modern. Good online catalog for Russian coins is this one: MDV https://www.m-dv.ru/en/ 

Regarding you warn coin. This looks much more real then previous. I would say - this one is genuine. However one alwasy need to keep the coin in hands to say for sure.  

21 hours ago, Ian said:

Here's my other (rather worn) 10 Kopeks

Siberia 1770 10K obv.jpg

Siberia 1770 10K rev.jpg

 

 

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1 hour ago, ViFi said:

And here is site who sells modern Chinese copies of Russian and other coins  https://coinsmoscow.ru/en__category__rossija-do-1917_ac/ 

That is a very useful site. Many thanks for this.

There is a copy  2 kopec 1764  available from them that looks remarkably similar to the one I have...on sale for 89 roubles :). There are no 5 or 10 kopeks listed.

However, even the copy on sale would require significant / radical surgery to get it to look like the one I have.  Although an `as struck' copy, it appears to lack a lot of the definition evident on my one. For example...look at the defined feet (toes) on my one then compare... also at the left of the ribbon tying the wreath together there is a berry on my one....not so on the copy. Not saying that my one is `genuine' just that it isn't one of those particular copies. ;) 

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2 hours ago, ViFi said:

Hello Ian, 

By saying Chinese souvenir I would not like to say items are really made in China. It is just common wording, however lot of modern fakes come from China. I'm not specialist in fake coins and can't say for sure when do they were made. But it looks specially for 2 first coins that replicas are quite modern. Good online catalog for Russian coins is this one: MDV https://www.m-dv.ru/en/ 

Regarding you warn coin. This looks much more real then previous. I would say - this one is genuine. However one alwasy need to keep the coin in hands to say for sure.  

 

 

 

I am no `expert' on fakes either, but I really have studied them for years. it's just that I've never really studied Russian ones before now.

Have had a look at this site and there's a wealth of info there to look at.  As an aside....the edge of my 2 kopeks looks identical to the first example listed (edge numbered 4). Sadly, that one is about fine (grade) so it is difficult to differentiate from the picture any similarities /differences. Weighs in totally correct though.

Will check out both of my 5 and 10 kopec coins here when the opportunity allows. 

Once again, many thanks for this...it's a new adventure for me and a welcome distraction from things `covid'.  Hope you are keeping yourself safe and well:)

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On 1/28/2021 at 5:58 AM, Ian said:

OK, my latest (and last) addition to my Siberian copper puppies!...for now at least.

This one is a beautiful large slug of copper in the shape of a 10 kopeks coin dated 1768 with the KM mint mark. It weighs in at 62 grams and has a close oblique reeded edge. 

 

Siberia 1768 10K obv.jpg

Siberia 1768 10K rev.jpg

Good call! I thought that one looked a bit better, but having taken a closer look it is, unfortunately, not authentic.

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20 hours ago, Ian said:

 

I am no `expert' on fakes either, but I really have studied them for years. it's just that I've never really studied Russian ones before now.

Have had a look at this site and there's a wealth of info there to look at.  As an aside....the edge of my 2 kopeks looks identical to the first example listed (edge numbered 4). Sadly, that one is about fine (grade) so it is difficult to differentiate from the picture any similarities /differences. Weighs in totally correct though.

Will check out both of my 5 and 10 kopec coins here when the opportunity allows. 

Once again, many thanks for this...it's a new adventure for me and a welcome distraction from things `covid'.  Hope you are keeping yourself safe and well:)

Welcome to the wonderful world of Russian coins. Unfortunately, the market is flooded with replicas of varying quality. One has to exercise extreme caution. As a general rule, do not buy directly from Russia. There are export prohibitions on antiquities, and most sellers just pedal replicas. This forum in the Russian language, has a lot of information:  http://coins.su/forum/forum/262-poddelnye-monety-dlya-kollektsionerov/

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Hi my old fried, your 10 kopeck looks  pretty good. What makes you think that is is fake? Can you show the edge?  it often gives away am otherwise nice looking coin, as many  counterfeiters neglect  it somewhat. See link for my coins. They are all genuine. Take care, stay safe, Sigi

http://www.sigistenz.com

link doesn't work. Copy www.sigistenz.com into your browser

 

Quote

 

 

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4 hours ago, alexbq2 said:

Good call! I thought that one looked a bit better, but having taken a closer look it is, unfortunately, not authentic.

Hey guys (in general on this thread......I don't want to come across as being ungrateful but i do feel the need to give some feedback as to what i've got from this so far. Hopefully i won't offend in the process as that is not my intent.

FEEDBACK: 

Firstly, many thanks for the welcome. it is appreciated, and on a positive note I have been provided with reference sites for Russian coins and one for `copies' for which i am truly very grateful. I will be making use of them, even though my knowledge of Russian stems from one year of study some 50 years ago. Basically I would only just manage to order a cup of tea , coffee, or a bowl of borsch from a menu written in Russian.

On the downside however.....its all very well being told that some thing is not authentic but being told that without being given ANY data as to the `why' a conclusion has been reached.......Being frank that's as useful to me as a one legged man in an arse kicking competition!

So far no-one has given me even the slightest grain of insight as to how they have concluded why any of these items are not authentic.

I don't honestly need any of these items to be anything other than what they are (whether fake or real). However what I do need to know is how to tell the difference. ........Can any of you guys actually help me with that? 

Bear in mind that if you give a man a fish then you only feed him for a day. However, TEACH a man to fish and you feed him for life!

Come on now folks...if the knowledge is there then how about sharing it with me....please?

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18 minutes ago, sigistenz said:

Hi my old fried, your 10 kopeck looks  pretty good. What makes you think that is is fake? Can you show the edge?  it often gives away am otherwise nice looking coin, as many  counterfeiters neglect  it somewhat. See link for my coins. They are all genuine. Take care, stay safe, Sigi

http://www.sigistenz.com

.

 

I'm entirely unsure as to the authenticity of any of these `siberian' coins. i had thought one of the 5 kopecs and both 10 kopecs were possibly genuine but so far all the `pronouncements' are that they are `fakes'. They may very well be fakes....but where's the data to form any conclusion (?)

I'll try to get the edges scanned. Good idea! Thanks

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Ian, to clarify - the 2K, 5K, and 1768 10K are, sadly, not genuine. The reason why we see them as not genuine is inextricably linked to the information provided in the links we shared. Namely, the lettering and design details on these coins are not consistent with that of the coins that are considered to be genuine. To put it in plain words, they don't look right.

You can see it for yourself if you compare the images of those 3 coins with the images of the genuine ones. While the overall design looks close, the devil is in the details.

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23 minutes ago, Ian said:

Hey guys (in general on this thread......I don't want to come across as being ungrateful but i do feel the need to give some feedback as to what i've got from this so far. Hopefully i won't offend in the process as that is not my intent.

FEEDBACK: 

Firstly, many thanks for the welcome. it is appreciated, and on a positive note I have been provided with reference sites for Russian coins and one for `copies' for which i am truly very grateful. I will be making use of them, even though my knowledge of Russian stems from one year of study some 50 years ago. Basically I would only just manage to order a cup of tea , coffee, or a bowl of borsch from a menu written in Russian.

On the downside however.....its all very well being told that some thing is not authentic but being told that without being given ANY data as to the `why' a conclusion has been reached.......Being frank that's as useful to me as a one legged man in an arse kicking competition!

So far no-one has given me even the slightest grain of insight as to how they have concluded why any of these items are not authentic.

I don't honestly need any of these items to be anything other than what they are (whether fake or real). However what I do need to know is how to tell the difference. ........Can any of you guys actually help me with that? 

Bear in mind that if you give a man a fish then you only feed him for a day. However, TEACH a man to fish and you feed him for life!

Come on now folks...if the knowledge is there then how about sharing it with me....please?

Hi Ian, this is a matter of long experience. I have been specializing in old Russian coins for nearly 5ü years. There are many features. Take for one the letters indicating value and date. I do not succeed inserting links here, don't know why. Do copy it in your browser. It shows pictures of genuine coins auctioned in Russia. Compare and get an idea. Sleeping time for little boys  here - Good Night 

https://www.m-dv.ru/monety-rossii-1700-1917/kid,14/mid,18/nid,36/types.html

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