Collector13 Posted December 24, 2020 Report Share Posted December 24, 2020 Hello I have 1805 EM Denga which was sold on 2013 St James auction in England https://www.m-dv.ru/catalog/p,142664/image.html Two collectors said that it is counterfeit coin cause dies do not mach (letter and number punches are different that they used) and edge is completely different from the others. I found that there are two types counterfeit coins of 1805 EM Denga which were made by copying from original pattern I couldn't find this type of coin in any catalogues and selling history in m-dv.ru so I decided to sent this coin for grading with all these problems and got grade AU55 BN so the coin is original https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/5777522-011/55/ What do think maybe it is unique coin which isn't described in any catalogues or maybe someone knows in what catalogue to find it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marekkk Posted December 25, 2020 Report Share Posted December 25, 2020 Mr Katz also have unpublished unknown and unlisted coins. There lots of copper coins that we don't know and also you can't find it in any catalogue. Only graders can say if it is original or not... https://katzauction.com/lots/view/1-3X9AUP/russia-1-kopek-1824-ngc-unpublished-type Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViFi Posted December 25, 2020 Report Share Posted December 25, 2020 Hi! I only can say that this is one more proof that NGC has no real experts in Russian coins. I have seen quite a number of slabbed Russian coins in NGC holders which even visually didn´t look as genuine coins. At the same time NGC refuses to slab coins proved to be genuine with many passes on the auctions. So this slab is not a proof that the coins is genuine. My opinion this is a fake. Or old fake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marekkk Posted December 25, 2020 Report Share Posted December 25, 2020 1 hour ago, ViFi said: Hi! I only can say that this is one more proof that NGC has no real experts in Russian coins. I have seen quite a number of slabbed Russian coins in NGC holders which even visually didn´t look as genuine coins. At the same time NGC refuses to slab coins proved to be genuine with many passes on the auctions. So this slab is not a proof that the coins is genuine. My opinion this is a fake. Or old fake. I don't agree with you if you say that it is a fake so where is original pattern from which fake coins are made? What you think about katz coin is it fake too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marekkk Posted December 25, 2020 Report Share Posted December 25, 2020 3 hours ago, ViFi said: Hi! I only can say that this is one more proof that NGC has no real experts in Russian coins. I have seen quite a number of slabbed Russian coins in NGC holders which even visually didn´t look as genuine coins. At the same time NGC refuses to slab coins proved to be genuine with many passes on the auctions. So this slab is not a proof that the coins is genuine. My opinion this is a fake. Or old fake. WiFi it's one more proof that you don't know much of Russian coins. You say that ngc has no real experts for Russian coins so can you explain why Russian and Europe collectors buys only NGC and they don't like PCGS? If you have pcgs you must send to reeveluate to ngc if you want to get bigger price. Also it is seen at auctions pcgs coins 10-20% the others 80-90% ngc russian coins. You want another proof go to numisbids and add to search "russia ngc" and "russia pcgs" and you will see the difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViFi Posted December 26, 2020 Report Share Posted December 26, 2020 20 hours ago, Marekkk said: I don't agree with you if you say that it is a fake so where is original pattern from which fake coins are made? What you think about katz coin is it fake too? Fake coins donùt have to be made from original patterns, that is why they are fake coins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViFi Posted December 26, 2020 Report Share Posted December 26, 2020 18 hours ago, Marekkk said: why Russian and Europe collectors buys only NGC and they don't like PCGS? Who told you this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViFi Posted December 26, 2020 Report Share Posted December 26, 2020 18 hours ago, Marekkk said: WiFi it's one more proof that you don't know much of Russian coins. Who told you this??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 https://coinsmoscow.ru/en__product__denga-1805-em-copper-copy/?catID=1288 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marekkk Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 21 hours ago, squirrel said: The other type also has a copy http://copycoins.ru/1-denga-1805-goda-em The die variation isn't the same as your added copy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marekkk Posted December 27, 2020 Report Share Posted December 27, 2020 I already found that coin in one collection. Also two museums in Moscow has it. This graded denga is novodel and has no bitkin catalogue. Waiting for museum reply and I will post evidence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underbidder Posted December 31, 2020 Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 looks sus we need to see the edge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted February 10, 2021 Report Share Posted February 10, 2021 Unrelated to the question of authenticity, but in what universe does this coin deserve an AU55 grade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underbidder Posted February 15, 2021 Report Share Posted February 15, 2021 On 2/10/2021 at 1:09 PM, alexbq2 said: Unrelated to the question of authenticity, but in what universe does this coin deserve an AU55 grade? this object of metal and plastic is outrageous on multiple levels it would deserve a 55 if someone chucked it to the bottom of the ocean, we die off from a zombie pandemic war, the next species digs it up in 1,000,000 years, numismatic science is bounds ahead and it turns out that it actually was an authentic unknown die, and by then gradeflation would have increased that 35 to be a 55 that's really the only way I see this ever being an authentic 55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcze Posted July 4, 2021 Report Share Posted July 4, 2021 This is a very well-known forgery, produced since about 2000 (Chelyabinsk forgery workshop in Russia). Here is a photo of another copy: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted July 4, 2021 Report Share Posted July 4, 2021 Have them graded 🤣 Ir's as easy as that. Sigi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted July 12, 2021 Report Share Posted July 12, 2021 On 7/4/2021 at 4:43 AM, arcze said: This is a very well-known forgery, produced since about 2000 (Chelyabinsk forgery workshop in Russia). Here is a photo of another copy: IMHO this item is not quite the same as the one at the beginning of the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcze Posted July 23, 2021 Report Share Posted July 23, 2021 On 7/12/2021 at 10:12 PM, alexbq2 said: IMHO this item is not quite the same as the one at the beginning of the discussion. And it can't be quite the same, because the one at the beginning of the discussion is the cast copy of the forgery I showed - which is clearly visible on the reverse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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