What happened to 1 ОRЕ 1719-1721 from Sweden?

[extant4cell]

These dalers:

 

 

were prototypes for design of Russian denga in 1730 and German III Pfening 1747 and Russian "Drum and Cannons" series of 1762:

 

 

 

-->

 

I am trying to find out what became of them, daler coins of 1718...

 

I know that they were over-struck into 1 ОRЕ 1719-1721:



But in turn, what happened to 1 ОRЕ 1719-1721 later, I don't know.

 

Where they overstruck further, or were they melter down?

 

If their were overstruck in 1740s, that would have to be into 1/2 ORE, but I can not find any...

 

Can any one explain this to me by providing additional info?

[gxseries]

I suspect a lot of them were removed from circulation either by overstriking them or melting them down within 2 decades.

 

These were emergency coins afterall and I presume they were not very popular because of their history.

 

http://pierre-marteau.com/wiki/index.php?title=Money_%28Sweden%29

[extant4cell]

The question mainly is: "what happened to 1 ОRЕ 1719-1721? Were they overstruck, or were they melter down?", but thank you for the link!

[constanius]

The remaining original ores were struck again into 1 ore(as late as 1749) & 1/2 ore #'s 340-343 so perhaps the 1719-1721 over-strikes were restruck at that time as well, though that is not stated I believe that could be the case. You might find this of interest http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=9508.0

 

[extant4cell]

The weight of these copper coins doesn't check out, they were doubling the weigh in late 1740s.

 

1 Daler was overstruck into 1 Ore 1719 type (or perhaps the earlier type, but I'll call it here 1719 type):

 

 

in late 1740s they were doubling the weight again. So 1 Ore should have became 1/2 Ore, but I can not find any of a late 1740s design 1/2 Ore.

 

1 Ore of a late 1740s design is approximately double the weight of 1 Ore 1719 type.

 

Later 2 Ore and 1 Ore of the later 1740s type were overstruck into 1 and 1/2 Skilling respectively, so 1 Ore 1719 type (former Daler or none-existing 1/2 Ore of late 1740s type) would fit in weight into existing 1/4 Skilling. But because 1/2 Ore of late 1740s type is unknown (to me at least), I have no idea what happened to 1 Ore 1719 type... and subsequently I have no idea about what happened to dalers after they were overstruck into 1 Ore of 1719 type.

 

Here are examples:



... 2 ОRЕ (late 1740s) into 1 Skiling. And 1 ОRЕ (late 1740s) into 1/2 Skiling:

 

All 1/4 Skillings that I examined have no overstrike signs...

[constanius]

S.M. = Silvermynt

K.M. = Koppamynt

 

In the reference I gave above SM #340 = 1 Öre K.M. -- 1749 -- Type II, Obv. Lg. Crowns, Rev. Narrow Crown -- Type #66

Mint: Avesta; References: KM 383.3, SM(Sveriges Mynt) 340 23.1-25 mm, 4.5 gm.

So the S.M.1 ores were struck as K.M.1 ores in 1749, yes they were lightweight(only 4.5gm) but they were reused as 1 ores not 1/2 ores. That is why I posted the picture of the page as it states that quite clearly. 4.5 gm was the original necessity weight. Publica Fide were 7.2 gm.

"Nos 340-343 are struck on Karl XII's necessity money(coins with milled edge are struck on Publica Fide)" #340 is dated 1749.

Try this site, it might be of help to you as it gives both reference Nos and weights http://www.swedishcoppers.com/CoinTypes.html keep in mind 1 ore K.M. & 1 ore S.M. are different weight & size .

1 Öre S.M. -- 1730 - 1750 -- Type #69

Mint: Avesta; References: KM 416.1, SM 318-338 29.5-30 mm, 14.2 gm

1 Daler S.M. -- 1716 -- Type II, Publica Fide (Faith of the People) -- Type #48

Mint: Stockholm; References: KM 354, SM 214 23 mm, 7.2 gm

1/2 Öre S.M. -- 1720 - 1721 -- Milled Edge -- Type #68

Mint: Stockholm; References: KM 380, SM 342a-343 23.1-25 mm, 7.2 gm struck on Publica Fide

 

 

Even this dated 1750 is still only 4.5 gm; 1 Öre K.M. -- 1750 -- Type III, Small Crowns -- Type #67

Mint: Stockholm; References: KM 383.1, SM 349 23.1-25 mm, 4.5 gm

Original necessity 1 Daler S.M. -- 1718 -- Type VIII, MARS (War God) -- Type #54

Mint: Stockholm; References: KM 360, SM 220 23.4-23.9 mm, 4.5 gm

[extant4cell]

Thank you so much for the link to the guide ( http://www.swedishcoppers.com/CoinTypes.html ) and for your comments. It shows how naive I was when I tried to figure it all out by myself. I still have some questions, they are in italic in the text.

 

To sum it up for me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, letters S.M. were used to indicate equivalent of copper coin weight / price to silver coins. It was kind of a guaranty that you can exchange S.M. coin for the equal silver coin any time day or night (if you going overseas, let's say).

 

The necessity or emergency Dalers (does this name "daller" has a meaning? Is it a name for a silver unit?), on the other hand, where as they barred the S.M. lettering were backed only by promises to the public that they will be able to exchange them after the war for a proper weight / price coins. It was a way of heavily taxing the people, I guess, and the exchange has never took the place, hence the reason for public strong dislike of these coins, in spite of their artistic design. Since it was a profitable endeavor for the state, Dallers S.M. must have been produced in great numbers, kind of like $ US and most of other currencies now days, backed by state promise and the product exchange value only. This production became a problem for the state for years to come, I guess, in the environment where traditionally coin value was usually not much higher than the price of the metal it's made from and physically attached to.

 

It started with introduction of 22.8-23.3 mm, 3.6 gm Daler S.M. in 1715:

 

that must have resulted in negative public outcry (or counterfeiters' joyful outcry) , so state introduced new, heavier Daler in 1716 (23 mm, 7.2 gm) with "Publica Fide" (Faith of the People) written on it:

 

 

Once the "faith" was reinstalled (public outcry softened), the state started a full steam ahead production of 4.5 gm Dalers S.M. coins (1717-1719) that were more artistic, and thus more difficult to copy e.g.:

 

 

These coins were the reason for 1 Ore K.M. creation (1719-1750) of the same 4.5 gm weight:

 

-

 

There were many types and years, but the 4.5 gm standard never changed for them and general design (shield and 3 crowns) remained for them all.

[extant4cell]

In 1768-1772 new standard for 1 Ore K.M. was introduce 4.7 gm as they must have run out of dalers in big quantities for re-striking, but still had some dies in good conditions, so they were used to produce:

 

-

 

The K.M. (Kopparmynt) system was first introduced in 1661:

 

 

That basically created two parallel standards / systems in copper coin weights: K.M. (Kopparmynt) and S.M (Sylvermynt). (Do you know why? Was there another war?)

 

For example:

 

1 Ore K.M. 1661 (above) was 32-33.5 mm, 17.7 gm.
1 Ore S.M. 1669 (pic. missing) was 46-47 mm, 49.4 gm

 

Here is next type 1 Ore S.M. 1675, as an example (45-46 mm, 42.5 gm):

 

 

Basically, the exchange rate was 1 S.M. to 3 K.M. of equal value (my guess). Ideally, as the silver coins weight / silver concentration changed, so did the weight of copper coins, that may not always being a case, but that's a general idea.

 

By the look of it, K.M. standard wasn't very popular at the earlier stages. If confused things. Well, it confused in any case.

It was employed again in 18th century purely to deal with Daler problem (unfulfilled promise) as described above. It was easier to re-strike them into 1 Ore of unpopular K.M. standard than to melt them and reproduce as S.M...

 

So, basically after that there were no more K.M. issues or coins with this weight. So all the coins 4.5 gm. coins were used until they worn out and were melted down to be used in new coins production as metal source.

[constanius]

Nice to see a collector so interested in all the history & finer details, glad that you fully understand what is a complicated but fascinating story.

 

A coin produced from locally mined silver was first struck in 1519 in Jaoachimsthal, Bohemia was called a Joachimsthaler, soon shortened to just Thaler. This in German became Daler & in English speaking countries Dollar, so yes a Daler was a silver coin. In times of necessity(war, siege etc) jn many countries emergency coinage(copper, gun-metal etc) was used, always with the intention to be redeemed for silver after the end of the crisis. This was because the silver coinage was needed for foreign credit.

As we all know now, even a piece of paper is acceptable in place of precious metal as longer as the recipient has faith in either the issuer to redeem it at face value or that other people will accept it for payment at face value.

The beauty of all this is the wonderful artifacts that survive, I love the necessity money & in subsequent transformations.

You might find this of interest http://www.riksbank.se/en/Press-and-published/Speeches/1996/Swedens-economy-and-monetary-policy1/

[extant4cell]

Thank you for your kind words and for the additional information. The understanding comes from using parallels with the history of Russian coin system in early 18th century. The underlying forces are all too similar. My interest in dalers and in Ores, as a Russian coins collector, comes from two things. Similarity between:

 

 

 

and my interest in delers as pro-design idea used in design of dengas and soldos.

 

And use of one and two Ores (S.M.) in production of Russian 1 and 2 kopecks, during the war between Sweden and Russia, example:

from these Ores:



Russians didn't capture all the coins ( ) and the ones that were left over ( lol ) were later re-struck into 1 and 1/2 Skillings (Shillings?):

 

Thank you so much for your patients with me and for all your much appreciated help, today I discovered something new, thanks to you, and I was trying to figure things out by myself for a little while. So I am very glad, I finally understand.

[constanius]

I have learnt a lot from you too these forums are great for sharing our interests as everyone benefits from each other's knowledge.

[ScottO]

yea. do dablle into the odd swedish coin.

1803 1/4 skilling with planchet chip, cant see an overstruck coin having one this big

do have this 1749.

I still have a 1719 and 1720 to upload