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In search for Denga 1730 and other years with 8 dots in reverse from its die template


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Only good thing about them, is that they are cheap. However, when it comes to collectable condition, it is another story. I would love to build a date set in AU/Unc, but, that is not possible in the US (I have not seen one that is a true Unc), and, most likely, not too easy in Russia.

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We all have our interests and priorities :) It is hard to find coins in good condition and cheap in any desirable areas of numismatic. Cheap as they may be, the dengas is an interesting subject to study as I mentioned - it's to be studied and studied and studies. Collecting them is a different matter. Most of the early years are overstrikes. Here are a few "cheap examples in bad condition" :) :






EUR 1600



EUR 180










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Exactly my point. Not one is even remotely Unc. Most show the signs of rotting. Dug-up coins that been cleaned(except for, maybe, the first one). The 1600euro one was stripped to bare metal, from the way it looks. Still, that is purely my opinion, which I do not force upon anyone.

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By the way, I spent a couple of days trying to classify 1730 dengas' rosette and bows elements. If interested, here the result. You can even see how they changed the shape and which ones were the earliest and which ones were used mainly to repair the dies. I am pretty proud of this... That's what numismatic is about apart from collecting the coins (which don't get me wrong - I love) ;) It's still sketchy and my English translation may be somewhat rough:





Description of Types and examples of Rosettes:

1 - five - petal rosette with a central dot, average - template 2 .
A: petals with the separation lines
B: with depression around the dot

2 - five - petal rosette with a central dot , average - template 1.
A: petals with the separation lines - early
B: petals with separation lines – later

3 - six - petal rosette with a central point, average - template 2 .
A: Renovated
B: Simple

4 - six - petal rosette with a center point , a large - template 2 .
A: simple, repair rosette - cloud
B: repair rosette, stamped with rosette of polushka – the sun through the cloud
C: repair rosette with clearly preserved earlier rosette – storm cloud

5 - four - petal rosette with a center dot , a small - template 2 .
A: bow socket - 4 loopy bow used as floral rosette

Description of Types and examples of Bows:

1 - four - hinge floral bow , small - template 2
A: bow with a center dot and an impression around the dot
B: bow without a dot
C : bow after repair


2 - four – ring-loops bow, rings are connected in the center, medium – Pattern template 2
A: vertical over horizontal rings
B : horizontal rings on top of the vertical
C: elongated vertically , the lower ring larger


3 - simple four loops bow, medium - template 2
A: bow with a central dot of "branches" are under the bow
B: "branches" pass on top of bow

4 - five- loops floral bow-rosette, used for repair, large - template 2
A, B and C : repair of a central dot rosette or one with branches


5 – four-loops ringed bow, with long loops that don’t connect in the center - template 1.


Many rosettes and bows have traces of repair and regression and can be easily identified from which rosette or bow it was “repaired” from and into which. For example - there is visible regression and repair is visible in the bow type 1-A - > B-1 -> 1-C, and it is also can be seen that in the future they were changed into other (Example 3) with the use of five loops (petals) flower " bows " .

You can also notice a rosettes’ regression in type 1, 3 and 5, and their subsequent repair cutaways in cloud rosettes.

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One good thing about this is that I don't mind that they are not unc... ;)

You will mind if one day you need to sell, and do not want to sell at a loss. I never thought such day would come, but it did for me...

I got maybe 10-15 of these from "back when..." and I doubt that I would be able to recoup what I paid for them at the time...

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It depends what you compare to, to what it was like 5 years ago, or what it's going to be like in 2-3. I see eBay crowded with common Russian coins in all sorts of condition. True that it's still hard to find something half decent and uncommon for a good price. But over the years I think everyone had some luck with interesting coins there. People don't want to sell their priced coins for a fraction of price. When it's so crowded, it is possible to get ripped by buyers not getting to you in time. It's true, but for the high grade coins, I think. And fixed prices are boring. However, there are some interesting coins there in fixed prices, that neither you nor I will pay for (unless really want something at the time, done it many time too), as we are usually the bargain-hunters!... ;) You remember yourself trying to sell a few of your coins? Interest was there, but not to the point of going "wow"!

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  • 1 month later...

Here is an interesting file shared by it's creator. Collection of rosets for all dengas produced in 1730-1754:


pdf.gif Описание розеток деньги.pdf


The only two things that I am sad about it that he didn't group them too well into type groups and did not keep the relation to corresponding templates.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Found an interesting Denga. It's template 4, that is less common in this year (more known as with 4-petal rosettes). This one has original rosette from Polushka of the same year. They are know to be used on Dengas when there was a need to repair a rosette, and I didn't see them used as a primary rosette on Dengas before.





(close ups all round 360 degrees)

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  • 5 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

One of our friends made this available for collectors use. It may be helpful when comparing two coin images if you are looking for any differences. You just choose three points on first image and three on the other, and program does the rest. It's worth trying this little program for reserching coins with many small differences, like dengas or 5 kopecks... Here is the link: http://aknew.github.io/imageCompare/ImageComporation.html

Even though I do not collect Russian coins I enjoy reading the topics, found your little gem of a link.


I had used Photoshop to show this commemorative reverse signed by Bagnall was struck using was a reworked Davies die. Bagnall's is on a slightly larger planchet and he altered the wheat to the left of the barrel to coins.




Full story here





But seeing the posted link thought I would give it a go. Turned out pretty effective.

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 5 months later...

I tried to analyze the eagle side of the 1730 denga. They all are made with a help of the same template - the round piece of metal to go over the die in making, with holes drilled for marking the main picture points.


The first line shows the only three template-non-compliant eagles, and an example of a template-compliant eagle from 1735 that dispays that the same template (at least partly) was used even in that year.


The second line shows 1730 eagles with 3 feathers on each side of the tail, and the last line - 4 feathered tale eagles of 1730 - all are template-compliant.




Also, an interesting chain of modification-evolution of the very first dies, believed originally made by Kadashevsky mint, as seeing in coins (the 2 coins in the middle are from my collection):



More on that in this topic: http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=146560&hl=

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Sorry, I fixed it a little, so it's not too ambiguous.


Small eagle is a separate "song". Made without template, but with the same instrument used for creating template-compliant eagles. Here is the link to a discussion about the small eagle:




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  • 4 months later...

There are 3 eagles in 1730 Dengas, that do not fit the template dots very well. The first 3 in the top line. Two of them due to later repair works carried on their dies, and one - small eagle, is an originally made eagle without use of template dots.



pic 1


As said before, the earliest dengas 1730 looked like this:



pic 2


There was one thing that wasn't finished with these coins. I didn't get around describing different types of eagles on 1730 dengas. Now, I had some time to think and to analyze them. If anyone, like me, interested in 1730 dengas, you may find this helpful:



pic 3


The pic 3, that I worked on for a while, represents main types of averse (eagle) dies, in kind of a chronological order of production. The last type is the type of die major repair, where any of the previously used types would be turned into dies with similar describable attributes (like: open center crown, simple orb cross), etc... The fat drank eagle, that does not fit the template, for example, is the result of an extreme repair case that changed it's type and distorted the template dots. Similar story with the first eagle on the top line (pic 1), only in its case, the repair wasn't extreme and was carried out distorting the template dots, but keeping the Type. Small eagle was an originally made eagle without template use, and although it belongs to the repair type of eagles according to its attributes, it's the only eagle of this type that didn't come to exist due to repair, and probably was made by repair master, who obviously never had access to template, in a first place, and who used repair tools, not original tools made for making original dies. That explains why it looks so special and different from others. Some repair tools were made by hand of the repair master from scratch, and some from broken instruments. If anyone will be interested in learning more, let me know, and I may describe the types in more details...



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