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1 rouble 1799 CM MB


Timofei
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Hi, all,

 

As some of you might have read on the Russian forum, a very interesting issue is being discussed about apparently unknown die pair of the 1799 CM MB rouble. For those of you who cannot read Russian (original long thread) I give a brief summary:

A small hoard of 3 identical roubles was discovered in Southern Russia, triplets are of the same state of preservation and of the same die pair. The owner posted a picture of 3 coins together:

 

The pictures created much controversy because some insisted that all 3 coins are original, while some thought they are copies. The owner is selling them and a buyer made expert evaluation in Russian GIM (History Museum in Moscow) by Mr. Shiryakov. The expert confirmed that the coin was original.

 

Now, even after the Museum gave positive verdict some people still have doubts. We have tried to find images of the similar die pair on the net, but so far we located only 1 coin and though its source is completely different the grade is the same Some collectors wrote that there are about 150 1-1799-SM-MB images of different die pairs in different grades but this particular die pair is nowhere to be found.

 

I hope that maybe any of you have the coin (or images) of this particular die combination to share. It would also help to find out how many dies and die pairs are there overall if somebody have statistics info.

1799.jpg

1799-1.jpg

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It is very interesting issue. I remember, once you said "оценивать русские монеты в час по чайной ложке" about NGC grading. Now, after russian grading one of these roubles by Shiryakov, you are asking for help?

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The NIKO 2 coin (April 2008), Lot 130, 4000USD looks to be the same die pair. It was resold in NIKO 3 (October 2008), Lot 177, for 2700USD so maybe somebody didn't like it?

 

Exactly the same coin then appeared at Kuenker153 (March 2009), Lot 2670, where the price dropped again...1750USD

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No problem.

 

I have images of 104 coins from auctions, but I think many duplicates (same coin at different auctions).

I haven't counted the die pairs and unfortunately do not have time to do so.

 

If anybody wants to do the research, I can drop the whole set of images off at rnumis and you can copy them from there.

 

Steve

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OK...they're all in a single 19MB zip file

 

http://rnumis.com/downloads/1799/CM-MB.zip

 

File names are usually of the form

1799CM-<auction house/auction>-<date>-<lot/side>-<sale price>.jpg

 

For example:

1799CM-ADA01-200509-38a-1600USD.jpg

means ADA (Alexander House) - Auction 01 - Sep 2005 - Lot 38/Obverse - 1600USD

 

The auction house codes are

 

ADA - Alexander

AU - Aurea

CN - Conros Weekly

CNM - Conros Monthly

GLDB - Goldberg

GM - Gorny & Mosch

HTG- Heritage

KNK _ Kunker

MISC - Unknown

NGSA - NGSA

NK - Niko

NU - MiM

TH - Thomas Hoiland

WAG - WAG

WSW - Warsaw

WW - World Wide

 

Have fun :yes:

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My question is - how many coins of a regular production did you see with these "bubbly" effect on the coins, and in particularly, that these are not the defects of the coin metal, but the ones of the dies used to produce these coins (hence, they all have the same defects)? My wild guess here (and I didn't read the Russian thread yet), that these coins are not made by mint, they are half real / half fake. The dies are made by the mint, however, they were stolen from the mint, before they where polished. For an obvious reason, as they were most probably selected to be destroyed, they were not even going to polish them. The die crack at the time of heat/cold strengthening made them redundant and easier to steal. Someone produced the coins illegally. That would explain the resulting coins, Shiryakov's expertise, and division of opinions 50/50 on Russian numismatic site. That makes them collectable coins of their own class, generating numismatic interest.

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.... The dies are made by the mint, however, they were stolen from the mint...

 

You have wild imagination. I personally like such features in people. They make good fiction writers. However, were you standing beside with candlelight when these dies were stolen?

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Timofei, thank you for posting these most interesting photos.

 

These coins appear to have been struck from rusted dies, which in turn suggests that they were used to strike the coins at a later date (rusted while in storage?). Perhaps they are later novodels struck from original dies? That might explain the the uniform high grades and the die rust.

 

If they are forgeries, then they are of frighteningly high quality.

 

But where have they been all these years and if they are a previously unknown set, then why did none of the great collectors during pre-Soviet times know of their existence?

 

 

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They stole what they could, and used it when no one was peering over their shoulder...

(Спионерили, что cмогли... и долбанули когда получилось...)

 

Pre-Soviet collectors would laugh if they saw that. One of the reasons

why they were out of sight for so long. Our times are a lot more tolerant -

we have eBay! After all we don't pass out every time we open it.

 

I believe, there is a picture of the edge in the original long thread if you scan through it :)

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I would like to know what the edge looks like.

Please see below my message. These were posted earlier in the Russian forum. State History Museum mentioned that the edge defect is very characteristic for 18th century technology (owner's foto with red circle).

 

Here is the link to a brief video:

http://rutube.ru/video/25cae6c58578d80eb783ce27d3570f85/

 

I think that the very fact that 3 coines were discovered together is not an unusual matter. One batch was sent from the Mint to Finance authorities. They might have the batch shipped and somebody collected a salary (and hoarded it as received).

 

To keep you updated, myself and other guys have looked through Steve's picture pack with no new info. The only 4th coin apart of the 3 triplets was from Niko-Kuenker-Niko resales.

1799-3.jpg

1799-4.jpg

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I think that the very fact that 3 coines were discovered together is not an unusual matter.

I agree. Nobody seems to think that there is anything unusual if banknotes (even from the 19th century) come in successive numerical order, so why should it be unthinkable with coins? There are known hoards with this fenomenon e.g. sunken ships, where coins from the year of the disaster are found in hundreds and in perfect condition, like directly from the bank.

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I agree. Nobody seems to think that there is anything unusual if banknotes (even from the 19th century) come in successive numerical order, so why should it be unthinkable with coins? There are known hoards with this fenomenon e.g. sunken ships, where coins from the year of the disaster are found in hundreds and in perfect condition, like directly from the bank.

 

In a middle of the Russian Upland along River Don (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_River_%28Russia%29 )? Where is the rest of them? :)

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