Timofei Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Hi, all, As some of you might have read on the Russian forum, a very interesting issue is being discussed about apparently unknown die pair of the 1799 CM MB rouble. For those of you who cannot read Russian (original long thread) I give a brief summary: A small hoard of 3 identical roubles was discovered in Southern Russia, triplets are of the same state of preservation and of the same die pair. The owner posted a picture of 3 coins together: The pictures created much controversy because some insisted that all 3 coins are original, while some thought they are copies. The owner is selling them and a buyer made expert evaluation in Russian GIM (History Museum in Moscow) by Mr. Shiryakov. The expert confirmed that the coin was original. Now, even after the Museum gave positive verdict some people still have doubts. We have tried to find images of the similar die pair on the net, but so far we located only 1 coin and though its source is completely different the grade is the same Some collectors wrote that there are about 150 1-1799-SM-MB images of different die pairs in different grades but this particular die pair is nowhere to be found. I hope that maybe any of you have the coin (or images) of this particular die combination to share. It would also help to find out how many dies and die pairs are there overall if somebody have statistics info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheburgen Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 It is very interesting issue. I remember, once you said "оценивать русские монеты в час по чайной ложке" about NGC grading. Now, after russian grading one of these roubles by Shiryakov, you are asking for help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 The NIKO 2 coin (April 2008), Lot 130, 4000USD looks to be the same die pair. It was resold in NIKO 3 (October 2008), Lot 177, for 2700USD so maybe somebody didn't like it? Exactly the same coin then appeared at Kuenker153 (March 2009), Lot 2670, where the price dropped again...1750USD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted July 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Hi, Steve, Yes, Niko pair combination has been discovered as fourth coin of this die (I forgot to mention in the original post, sorry, my mistake). How many dies do you estimate are there in 1799 CMMB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 No problem. I have images of 104 coins from auctions, but I think many duplicates (same coin at different auctions). I haven't counted the die pairs and unfortunately do not have time to do so. If anybody wants to do the research, I can drop the whole set of images off at rnumis and you can copy them from there. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted July 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 I can drop the whole set of images off at rnumis and you can copy them from there. That would be great indeed. M-dv site lists many coins, but maybe we can find something interesting of this die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted July 26, 2013 Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 OK...they're all in a single 19MB zip file http://rnumis.com/downloads/1799/CM-MB.zip File names are usually of the form 1799CM-<auction house/auction>-<date>-<lot/side>-<sale price>.jpg For example: 1799CM-ADA01-200509-38a-1600USD.jpg means ADA (Alexander House) - Auction 01 - Sep 2005 - Lot 38/Obverse - 1600USD The auction house codes are ADA - Alexander AU - Aurea CN - Conros Weekly CNM - Conros Monthly GLDB - Goldberg GM - Gorny & Mosch HTG- Heritage KNK _ Kunker MISC - Unknown NGSA - NGSA NK - Niko NU - MiM TH - Thomas Hoiland WAG - WAG WSW - Warsaw WW - World Wide Have fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 My question is - how many coins of a regular production did you see with these "bubbly" effect on the coins, and in particularly, that these are not the defects of the coin metal, but the ones of the dies used to produce these coins (hence, they all have the same defects)? My wild guess here (and I didn't read the Russian thread yet), that these coins are not made by mint, they are half real / half fake. The dies are made by the mint, however, they were stolen from the mint, before they where polished. For an obvious reason, as they were most probably selected to be destroyed, they were not even going to polish them. The die crack at the time of heat/cold strengthening made them redundant and easier to steal. Someone produced the coins illegally. That would explain the resulting coins, Shiryakov's expertise, and division of opinions 50/50 on Russian numismatic site. That makes them collectable coins of their own class, generating numismatic interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kopeikin Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 .... The dies are made by the mint, however, they were stolen from the mint... You have wild imagination. I personally like such features in people. They make good fiction writers. However, were you standing beside with candlelight when these dies were stolen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 as I said - my wild guess... You must agree, though, that this would explain as well, why all three coins made by the same pair of dies would sit in one place to be discovered centuries later... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 Timofei, thank you for posting these most interesting photos. These coins appear to have been struck from rusted dies, which in turn suggests that they were used to strike the coins at a later date (rusted while in storage?). Perhaps they are later novodels struck from original dies? That might explain the the uniform high grades and the die rust. If they are forgeries, then they are of frighteningly high quality. But where have they been all these years and if they are a previously unknown set, then why did none of the great collectors during pre-Soviet times know of their existence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 I would like to know what the edge looks like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 They stole what they could, and used it when no one was peering over their shoulder... (Спионерили, что cмогли... и долбанули когда получилось...) Pre-Soviet collectors would laugh if they saw that. One of the reasons why they were out of sight for so long. Our times are a lot more tolerant - we have eBay! After all we don't pass out every time we open it. I believe, there is a picture of the edge in the original long thread if you scan through it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted July 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 I would like to know what the edge looks like. Please see below my message. These were posted earlier in the Russian forum. State History Museum mentioned that the edge defect is very characteristic for 18th century technology (owner's foto with red circle). Here is the link to a brief video: http://rutube.ru/video/25cae6c58578d80eb783ce27d3570f85/ I think that the very fact that 3 coines were discovered together is not an unusual matter. One batch was sent from the Mint to Finance authorities. They might have the batch shipped and somebody collected a salary (and hoarded it as received). To keep you updated, myself and other guys have looked through Steve's picture pack with no new info. The only 4th coin apart of the 3 triplets was from Niko-Kuenker-Niko resales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordic gold Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 I think that the very fact that 3 coines were discovered together is not an unusual matter. I agree. Nobody seems to think that there is anything unusual if banknotes (even from the 19th century) come in successive numerical order, so why should it be unthinkable with coins? There are known hoards with this fenomenon e.g. sunken ships, where coins from the year of the disaster are found in hundreds and in perfect condition, like directly from the bank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 I agree. Nobody seems to think that there is anything unusual if banknotes (even from the 19th century) come in successive numerical order, so why should it be unthinkable with coins? There are known hoards with this fenomenon e.g. sunken ships, where coins from the year of the disaster are found in hundreds and in perfect condition, like directly from the bank. In a middle of the Russian Upland along River Don (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_River_%28Russia%29 )? Where is the rest of them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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