1922 proof rouble Fedorin 3 fragment B

[marv]

I was thumbing through my copy of Fedorin (Coins of the Land of the Soviets - Moscow 1998) when I noticed the different die varieties of the 1921 and 1922 roubles he has listed as numbers 1-5. I happen to own a proof 1922 Rouble AG that I now see is die 3 fragment B (очень редко) very rare. Since I don't see these "fragments", as he calls them, listed in English texts on Russian coins, I was wondering if the rarity holds over to proof versions of these coins. Fedorin only lists a different proof die for the 1922 PL version, no different die for a proof version of the 1922 AG.

 

The difference between the fragments A and B is a half-dot that is visible at the right-end of the circle of dots that surround the state emblem (hammer and sickle). On fragment A, the last dot at the lower right end of the circle is fully formed and there is a clean space between that dot and the right hand flourish which surrounds R.S.F.S.R. On fragment B, there is a half dot that is embedded in the flourish. If you have a copy of Fedorin, the pictures on page 20 of die #1 (ШТ-1) show the two fragments.

 

 

Here is my proof rouble. If you look closely, you may be able to see the fragment B as I've explained it, but the picture is not huge as the following is.

 

 

 

 

And here is another proof 1922 AG off the Heritage site. You should be able to see that this is Fedorin's fragment A (need to log in to the Heritage site)

http://coins.ha.com/c/lot-image.zx?saleNo=410&lotNo=14810&lotIdNo=9127&inventoryNo=0&id=1135115

 

 

If any of the "experts" on this board are familiar with the rarity of fragment B for the Proof version of the 1922 AG rouble, I would be interested in your comments. For the business strike, as I've mentioned, Fedorin rates it very rare, but I've never seen it mentioned in any auction.

 

Thank you.

[one-kuna]

i think all proofs of 1922 count in high demand and bring high prices; these about to prices of the last Romanovs rubles in high grade; I always wanted 1922 but never had them; this question can be addressed directly to Fedorin too using MOnety i Medali web site

[BKB]

I think these only came as proofs. 1922 AG F1.2 f2 F-5. Variety is called "half-dot" I think I heard about business strikes, but every time the argument was that it is an impaired proof. In my Fedorin it is listed at $800, which is decent, but normal for proofs.

[marv]

Fedorin doesn't list a separate proof type for the 1922 AG. At least in my copy of the 1998 version (are there newer ones?) he only shows one proof type, #5, which is the PL variety. I interpret that to mean that there are no special types/dies for the AG proof of 1922 - that the same dies are used for both proof and business strikes. There are business strikes of both 1921 and 1922. He shows an uncirculated 1922 on the front cover of his book. In my 1998 edition, he prices type #5 (proof only PL mintmaster) at $300 Of course $300 (or $800) for a proof is very out of date since, depending on the state of preservation, these can go up to $10,000. He doesn't (at least in my edition) show any prices for proof versions of 1921 or 1922 AG.

 

In my book, the only 1922 shown with a price of $800 is the mint error version with the old imperial mintmaster of В-С on the edge. He doesn't mention that this is proof or business strike, but I would guess that the error only came in a business version.

[one-kuna]

do you have Fedorin 3rd issue, I got the second one and stopped

[marv]

There's nothing that clearly identifies the edition; the only thing that is specific is: Moscow 1998 on the cover. Inside on the second page is: УДК 737.1 (47+57), ББК 63.2 (2), Ф32. Perhaps that further identifies the edition.

 

I will take your advice and query Fedorin through M&M.

 

Thanks.

[EugeneG]

Moscow, 1998 is the 1st edition, AFAIK.

Moscow, 2010 — the latest one, it is the 4th edition.

[one-kuna]

Just got home, a second edition says that variants mentioned by BKB is only met and known in proof;

Goodman sale had one PROOF full set of 1922, plus four more 1922 proofs

[marv]

Have you ever seen these variants mentioned in an English text? I haven't. I wonder whether there is a premium applied to the "half-dot" variety? Fedorin says "very rare" in 1998. Does the 2010 edition still say "very rare?"

[one-kuna]

here are images from mine second signed edition

[BKB]

Have you ever seen these variants mentioned in an English text? I haven't. I wonder whether there is a premium applied to the "half-dot" variety? Fedorin says "very rare" in 1998. Does the 2010 edition still say "very rare?"

Marv,

 

I got the 2007 edition. Just says $800. Nothing on rarity. The only coin listed as R5 is a 22 with imperial ruble edge. Do not go crazy over the "very rare" part. 1922 in Proof is rare and desirable, whether it is labeled "very rare" or not.

[extant4cell]

2012 conros lists 1922 proof as (AG and PL) both at around 60000 roubles (~$2000). Circulation 1922 listed at about $400, apart from the one with imperial edge, which is listed a R (no price given).

[one-kuna]

this is a regulat variant

[marv]

Thanks all for the information. I also heard corroborating information from Vasily at M&M. The 1922 half-dot variety only occurs for the proof strikes and is priced slightly more than the variety without the half-dot as shown in one-kuna's excerpt from the second edition. It seems that one can always learn something new in the study of coins. As I've said, I've never seen anything mentioned about these varieties in English texts.

 

BTW, Vasily told me that the fifth edition of Fedorin is soon to be out. I can see already by comparison with one-kuna's second edition that Mr. Fedorin added a lot more detail just to the listings for the RSFSR roubles between my first edition and the second. I will probably buy the new edition when it comes out, so if someone has a good source, I'd like to know.

 

Thanks again.

[BKB]

Your best source would be Vasily. After all, Fedorin is his co-worker at M&M

[marv]

Thanks.

[freak]

please let us know what you find out