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Siberia 10 kopeks 1771KM - fake??


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I just won a Siberia 10 kop.1771KM from ebay seller direktorsssr. I was just going to pay it. But now I read in the ebay watch thread that all his coins are fake. To me the pictures looked absolutely convincing. Could the coin be fake? I do not want to buy a fake - on the other hand I will stay an honest eBayer. Please let me know your opinion. Thank you, Sigi

See eBay link below

http://www.ebay.com/...cvip=true&rt=nc

 

 

 

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Sigi, I just posted some information on eBay watch thread.

Thank you dear friend for opening my eyes :shock: It is a wonder that I had not paid yet, as I normally do instantly.

Sigi

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Despite of what the books say, the Siberian 1771KM 10 kopek is a rare coin. It was the only date Brekke did not have in his collection. In my 40 years of experience I have never seen one in this grade. Slight variations of design within any date occur (position of letters, lenght of sable's tail, etc.). The coin looks credible.

But it was in very bad company, with all the offers of the seller declared fakes (see thread "eBay watch").

The seller was nice enough to send the coin on approval. The weight of 65.85 grams is OK . The edge doesn't show the slightest trace of wear which is suspicious. The color is not quite normal (pure copper? lacking the usual share of precious metal?). The 2 black spots on the monogram side look intentional. Would they hide some white metal core? An examiation of the metal composition could answer these questions. As has been said in Russian forums (see the "eBay watch" thread), we have to deal with a new generation of Siberia fakes.

Are the grading companies (and their clients) aware....... :shock: ?

See my pictures below.

Sigi

P.S: At the same time the seller offered (and sold $465) an equally nice 10kop1781KM - equally credible and from different dies, !!

ebay10kop1771km.jpg

scan above - photo below

foto10kop17712.jpg

 

 

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This seller doesn't really stick to any one particular issue of fake. I have seen Siberian, silver, Paul, all sorts of things. I just avoid whatever he is selling before the greedy little monster inside of me gets me to waste a bunch of money on a coin that is surely going to be proven fake after I have bought it.

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  • 1 month later...

Sigi, did you return 1771 coin back or....

Yes I sent him the coin back. :yes: He settled things with eBay.

Sigi

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  • 1 month later...

Not everyone can access the image in that link, so I copied that coin picture and combined it with others for you to compare them easier. The coin on the link provided by Kopeikin is the better example of this coin I've seen so far. There are still many noticeable differences in design that may help with authenticating coin by the picture. Thank you!

 

post-27191-0-78026000-1365608473_thumb.jpg

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Guest rnsdb

Was this year listed as a known forgery in any of the 52 JRNS issues dealing with forgeries? If it is forged, any indication of the techology? Casting, engraved, laser engraved etc? If laser engraved soas to make it impossible to identify differences, and if they've got a solution to the forging of the edge, the hobby is in real trouble. There's still a need for analyzing the older forgeries floating around and the ability to know if an issue has been reported as having been forged will still be useful in terms of knowing to be on the alert.

 

I had showed a hypothetical graph at a RNS meeting in NY 20 years ago showing the technology line of forgery improvement 0-100% on y axis and years on the y axis and posed the question what decade would it be at the given rate of improvement before it would reach 100% and be impossible to tell a forgery from an original. It looks like we're fast approaching that decade.

 

I scanned Mikhailovitch for the picture to put in the database, but I see Liv posted some nice images of both original and novodels genuine and forged. I've set up both forgeries in the database, and would like to include any text that might have been reported in jrns issues or elsewhere. Here's the side by side waiting for some text comments as to technology, condemnation points, etc

1781KMsigiforgery

 

Liv, how do you know the original/novodel you showed are genuine? And is the forgery you showed the same as the ebay one or a 2d forgery from a different hand/technolgy?

 

Perhaps it's time to put out a virtual issue of Journal of Russian Numismatic Society #92 Sping 2013 devoted exclusively to forgeries. Pretend we're Ran Zander and come up with 4 or 5 topics eg Forgery Technology, Internet Sources of Information, Analysis Techniques, An Auttheticators Real Life Experience, etc Most of the content should be on the web. There's a Fake Coin Forum on coinpeople with Russian content. Put it in the JRNS index as jrns92 with links to pdfs of each of the articles. Unless we plan on turning everything over to the slabbers, we'll need the education and knowledge or else just plan on buying only high priced slabs from auction houses.

 

Ron

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Ron,

 

What are you asking, exactly?.. We are at the point where fakes of more expensive coins can be discovered only by very experienced collectors. Forgeries are reportedly sold by all auctions (even the best of them). I bought one recently from a very reputable auctioneer -- I was only able to tell it because I have seen one previously from the same series. Also, I had it confirmed by an expert in Russia, because I do not trust myself completely.

 

Crazy quality fakes are published almost daily on Russian forums. One needs to use that resource in order to be able to compile any sort of useful fake database. I do not think too many good quality fakes were published by RNS...

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Guest rnsdb

Bkb, what is essence you're saying is buy only high priced slabbed coins from reputable auction houses and plan on a fair percentage of those being forgeries. But even of those, what are the authenticators working with? They don't have the original coin, only a picture of the original coin. They look to see if the coin has previously been reported as forge, which is what I'm proposing in the Forgery Task. They have the actual forgery & size/wt, but so does whoever reports the forgery, and good images and descriptions from the reporter, together with observations of others, can go a long way for those who don't have the actual forgery.

 

I think it says something that we can't say at a minimum which of the 8000 Brekke/Severin/Uzdenikov/Julian coins have had forgeries reported for them.

 

As regards JRNS, not having been through all 52 forgery articles, I can't say about the quality of the fakes reported, but the fact is poor quality or not, those forgeries are out there being bought and sold at this moment. The forgery task refers not only to JRNS articles which is a starting point, but other sources which as you mention are numerous.

 

Ron

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Crazy quality fakes are published almost daily on Russian forums. One needs to use that resource in order to be able to compile any sort of useful fake database. I do not think too many good quality fakes were published by RNS...

 

In the RNS days the fakes still looked like fakes, easily detectable be the mere sight of their black and white picture. Those were the days....

Sigi

 

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Guest rnsdb

Sigi, lol. You're not that old. JRNS last issue was in late 2010, so maybe it's true for the earlier issues from the 80's and 90s when the technology was evolving, but I would hope later issues from the 2000's would be closer to the current crop. We'll never know until we go through them in detail and put them in a single respository.

 

Ron

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In the RNS days the fakes still looked like fakes, easily detectable be the mere sight of their black and white picture. Those were the days....

Sigi

 

"Those were the days" -- which was originally a Russian song called "Dorogoy dlinnoyu" :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO1UKbyPRHs

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Bkb, what is essence you're saying is buy only high priced slabbed coins from reputable auction houses and plan on a fair percentage of those being forgeries. But even of those, what are the authenticators working with? They don't have the original coin, only a picture of the original coin. They look to see if the coin has previously been reported as forge, which is what I'm proposing in the Forgery Task. They have the actual forgery & size/wt, but so does whoever reports the forgery, and good images and descriptions from the reporter, together with observations of others, can go a long way for those who don't have the actual forgery. I think it says something that we can't say at a minimum which of the 8000 Brekke/Severin/Uzdenikov/Julian coins have had forgeries reported for them. As regards JRNS, not having been through all 52 forgery articles, I can't say about the quality of the fakes reported, but the fact is poor quality or not, those forgeries are out there being bought and sold at this moment. The forgery task refers not only to JRNS articles which is a starting point, but other sources which as you mention are numerous. Ron

BKB described his understanding of the situation with Russian fake coins very well. I did not understand what you are trying to say. Did anyone?
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Guest rnsdb

<<<I did not understand what you are trying to say.>>

 

It's pretty simple. Identify which of the 7469 Brekke/Severin coins in the database have had forgeries reported, support them with images of the original and forgery reverse/obverse/edge together with analytical narrative text, and make this available to collectors as an integral part of a SQL relational database of Russian coins.

 

eg. Show a display of all Siberian 10K originals or 5k Plate pieces that have forgeries. Show a display of the 10K 1771 original and all known forgeries along with weight, size and with the anaytical text that identifies them as forgeries.

 

Had sigi had that, he would have been alerted that this coin has been forged, perhaps several times, viewed images of the original and forgeries, and had links to all the articles that have analyzed and discussed this forgery. Wouldn't this be useful info to have before purchasing a coin?

 

See these links 1796cipher4k Datasheet31forgeries Form1912ruble DatabaseControlPanel

 

Ron

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<<<I did not understand what you are trying to say.>> It's pretty simple. Identify which of the 8000 Brekke/Severin/Uzdenikov/Julian coins have had forgeries reported, support that with images of the original and forgery reverse/obverse/edge together with analytical narrative text, and make this available as an integral part of a relational database to Russian collectors.Ron
I have doubts it is simple at all. Quality of fakes of Rusian coins had improved beyond human comprehension. I never went through a data base of 8000 Brekke/Severin/Uzdenikov/Julian FAKE coins but I have a feeling of a situation which tells me it is now obsolete - no use.
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reading all above makes me recall again that idea of the database was frozen in the very past - when russian coins cost little/ very little; now, when middle class cannot afford anymore to assemble modern russian imperial coin collection, ideas of database/fake database has been dramatically eraised; i feel bed about not doing so twenty years ago by same person/s but now want it these days when there are nothing to afford; by now we can only keep us busy identifying fakes for example...so sad

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I'm afraid that for all 8000 described Russian coins you will be able to find at least one forgery. If you find one that doesn't have one, I bet 20 bucks that tomorrow this "unfortunate" fact will be changed. The task you propose, I can deem as incredibly difficult and probably useless, simply to the fact that I will never loose my 20 bucks.

 

It will take too much time to describe all the fakes. I don't know about anyone else, but I personally don't want to become a specialist in fake coins. I'd like to stay true to original coins, real ones. I don't mind novodels, but the real ones, not the ones that can be passed for original coins in a rash for profit. For the above mentioned reasons, I'd suggest everyone who is passionate about Russian numismatics (be it original mint coins or Novodels) learn more about their Coins of choice (that's what I am trying to do). This is the only way that you will be able to tell any fakes from original coins, by knowing your original coins in and out. I believe it is a lot smaller portion of information that you need to digest and keep in mind.

 

I dearly doubt that technology will ever allow to produce coin copies or fake close to 100% quality. The investment costs into this tech or into their production using such tech. will outweigh the benefits that fakes sellers will be hoping to rip. There are simple and effective ways of guarding yourself from buying a fake, after all, even though the fake coin that Sigi bought was good looking, it was reasonably easy to tell it apart from original coin, particularly if you had an opportunity of holding it in your hand.

 

There are two little articles I've written on Siberian Coins on Russian forum, I also discuss authenticity in them:http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=103942&hl= & http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=104183&hl= This is a small translated extract that deals with the subject somewhat:

 

"The most reliable way to determine the authenticity of a coin is to compare it to the original coin design (die) and agains the known original coin and it's description; analysis of its metal under microscopic magnification, measuring its weighing, presence of the correct old patina, and its crude mintage and poor quality (especially in the earlier coins) will point you in the wright direction. Overall impression of the coin should be pleasing to the experienced collector's eye, and of course the experience of using of all these methods in combination, or simply put - the numismatic "know-how" is your best tool.

 

To understand the extent of the disaster with fakes, it is enough to look into the multi-purpose Internet auction sites that do not have control over the quality of stuff sold on them. Fakes (especially modern), are plentiful enough... and ugly... In his book "Fakes in Russian coins" Semenov, out of the 16 pages devoted to the fake copper coins' images, provides as much as one and a half pages for the images of fake "Siberian" coins.

 

Rodionov: <...> Russian counterfeiters. Reading documents from the XIX c. on the history of our factories and the Altai scooping one destiny stonecutters Kolyvan, I almost in every archival inventory encountered a case of "fake coin producers...".

 

Here's another example, that also explains why Russian numismatists don't like Novodels: Searching the coin auctions database I found 3 coins dated 1764 (the infamous probes!) that were sold as original coins on well scrutinised numismatic auctions, they also left their mark in the coin database of "Monetnyj Dvor"(МД). Among these three coins, visual examination of their photos conducted by Ermak (one of the Russian forum memebers) revealed no genuine originals, only disguised novodels. Here are these coins:

 

post-27191-0-75663500-1364653670_thumb.jpg

 

Ermak: Kopek and Polushka - obvious Novodels. Denga has... very impressive cherry between the first and second leaf of the right, which is known to appeared on the originals only in 1776. This means that in presented coin one or two of the last digits were restroken in order to turn them into "rarities"."

 

All I can add to this, Ron is that - No auction authentication commity, No grading company, No other collector (if only one) will ever be as good in finding out if the coin is a real coin or not. The only person who can do that really well is you. You are the one who spends 100s of dollaras paying for a coin. You are the one who should do the research, ask around, convince everyone around you and finally convince yourself that the coin is a genuine artifact, before you part with you money.

 

As far as these coins do. If you spend hour looking at them and comparing them to other known original coin images and descriptions, you will be able to tell the originals from novodels and from fakes with a relative ease.

 

post-27191-0-78026000-1365608473_thumb.jpg

 

The future is not as grim as you pained it in your posts, Ron. But only if you put some work into it. :)

 

Cheers!

 

Extant (Eugene)

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As far as these coins do. If you spend hour looking at them and comparing them to other known original coin images and descriptions, you will be able to tell the originals from novodels and from fakes with a relative ease.

 

post-27191-0-78026000-1365608473_thumb.jpg

 

It is not as easy as that, I'm affraid. With copper coins there is an enormous variety of more or less distinct variants. Your two coins on top (both considered genuine) are from different dies, compare the height of the left animal's tail tip, it is different with the two coins. Take the date "1771" - again very different.

On the cipher side compare the tips of the laurel leaves - pointed with one coin, rounded with the other.

I had the lower left (fake) coin in hand, examined it closely.

I am convinced that both sides are exact copies of an existant coin. :shock:That is the danger.

From a picture you can no longer tell.

You got to get the coin in your hand to examine it very closely, before paying (or not).

Sigi

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Guest rnsdb

Ex, I agree with you 100% but your post only goes to make my case. I offer the following

 

1. As an expert in Siberian coins, were you to enter your knowledge of the 228 Siberian Brekke coins into the database, your expertise would become the expertise of the 200,000+ Russian collectors. Your knowledge of which of those 228 have been reported forged, your images of the original and forgery, your text description/analysis, and your rating of DOD (degree of danger/difficulty in identifying eg 8.5) would be of immense help to other collectors. Put something like this into the database for your Siberian coins 1796cipher4k A DOD of 5.0 would be pretty easily detected while a 9.5 would be virtually undetectable. I issue you a challenge. Your assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to pick out your favorite Brekke Siberian forgery, preferably with multiple forgeries, and send me your best images of original and forgery obv/rev/edge. Write up your text assessment, include any important links you have on the coin, and give your DOD rating 1-10. I'll enter your input into the database, and post screen shots of what the database puts out for your coin

 

2. An expert in the 1912 Napoleon ruble forgery could do the the same and you would then have their expertise. This is what Wiki volunteer is all about. Volunteer expertise input for the benefit of all

 

3. I doubt that all 7469 Brekke/Severin coins have been forged. Too many are too common to be worth the effort. JRNS in a recent issue said they had cumulative reported 232. The forgery universe might be 400 or 800 of the 7469, but certainly a manageable task if divided up among several dozen collector volunteers. The point is nobody knows, yet the data is out there to know, but it has to be assembled into a SQL relational database before we can know

 

4. As far as sigi's comment about having to have the coin in hand, this may be true for some but not all past/present forgeries. There's a lot of older or mediocre forgeries floating around. Plus if you're buying by mail, you can't have the coin in hand. You have to make do with what you have. If we can catch 90% of them from pictures or if it has a DOD rating of 9.5 saying stay away from the coin, it's better than buying a coin with no info at all

 

5. As far as Russian forgery forums, Ebay Watch, sites, etc, I don't want to have to search 50 million places to find what I want and assemble the info. Why have 500 collectors all doing the same work? I want the work of one to go into the database to give me and others most of the information we need and point us via links of where to go for more.

 

6. It's important to recognize what a database is. The data comprising a coin has to be mostly codes of the thing. Codes for metal, czar, denomination, mint, original/novodel etc. Not copper or Peter I but the code for those. It also has to use Structured Query Language SQL to filter, sort, and extract the data to display. If it's not that, it's not a relational database but rather an ad hoc collection of text files, images, excel spreadsheets, html pages, web sites, etc with limited filtering, sorting and analytical capability

 

7. Forgeries are only one byproduct of the database. Apart from forgeries, there's a lot of additional benefit of being able to filter, sort, read links of articles on a particular coin, read JRNS or auction pdfs, analyze auction prices, know current valuations, inventory collections etc all out of one place. The relational database is where all our collective expertise can be assembled. It's puzzling to me why no one has tried it out and reported on their experience

 

Ron

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