extant4cell Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 May be I am asking a silly question, but looking through the past main auctions I noticed that 1761 Novodel / Partern Denga coins have different types, or perhaps there is a different explanation? It appears that some Novodels were struck with original dies and some with new "better technology" ones and some with original that were cut a bit more using new technology (perhaps). Bitkin (Биткин) lists 7 coin types (620 621 622 623 624 625 626) can anyone check why he listed 7 numbers? I don't know why he listed so many, and moreover, why so many different Novodels exists. How many official re-strikes were there, does any one has an idea? I could group them into 3 main types, but I believe there were more than one set of dies in each type that may result in sub-types possible to exist. Here are the pictures from MD ( http://www.m-dv.ru/c...906/prohod.html ) with 3 types I put up together: Type I: 2012 - 2006 - Type II: 2011 - 2009 - Type III: 2000 - Please comment... PS: Sorry, the year should read 1761 (not 1762) in the title... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Novodels were made at different times. There were instances when dies were prepared specially, and then destroyed after the set was produced. Thus, the next set was produced with newly cut dies. Hence, you got all these variants. Add fakes to that, and you get a nice range... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted January 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 So, I guess, there are no records available in the literature? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 A lot of early literature did not make any efforts to distinguish Novodels from original coins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted January 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 So, I guess (again) that one can not really say that this or that type is really "original Novodel", but refer to it as "one of the known Novodels dies or types" (not even confirmed by literature) ... These pattern coins give me a headache that requires further study by specialists. But some of these coins are just too damn good looking! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 If I collected novodels religiously, I would stick to coins illustrated in GM first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted January 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 If I collected novodels religiously, I would stick to coins illustrated in GM first. Good point. Collecting known and described in literature coins would be the way to go. I guess all these 3 types are recorded in GM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 Not type II Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted January 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 Is type II 1) an illegal "re-strike", or 2) later re-strike with official record in that case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted January 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 Looks like in GM there are 3 coins, 2 are similar to one type and the other one to another, but not to type II: So, as Type I and III are reflected in GM and purely in sphere of art are appealing. Type II is somewhat too similar to the new fake coins that are made at present. They are just not good looking enough for coins made by mint. However, it may be one of the later Novodels, but until I get a prove that they are such, I will consider that type to be a fake. If someone may be able to contradict this statement, I would be happy to hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 Remember what I said about how you get a nice range? Although, I do not think there is enough information to call it a fake -- plenty of errors in GM. Also, his books miss quiet a few coins too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted January 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 Did you read anywhere if they made one set, or a few sets of dies for every Novodel strike? One thing in defense of Type 2 is that it looks like the die for armature side of the coin for type 2 is the same as for Type 3. They possibly used the same dies for Denga side adding a full stop after the year... Mixing dies must have been a common practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 There were many sets. GM coins are my preference... that is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted January 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 What I meant was, were there different die sets for the same strike? Let's say for the GM coins of the same strike? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted January 15, 2013 Report Share Posted January 15, 2013 Do not understand the Q... You mean if there were few sets of dies prepared to stike novodels of the same coin for the same industrial fair, etc.? Doubt it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted January 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2013 That was the question, yes. The reason for asking is that there are some coins of Type I with different armature side of a coin, where word Denga and the drum look very different from the GM dies. Unfortunately, the paired picture that I posted later was deleted and no longer available. But if you can compare the pictures that I posted in the first post with the GM picture, you'll see what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted January 15, 2013 Report Share Posted January 15, 2013 Story has it: first there were original dies used for novodel production. Then, when one or both deteriorated, new dies were cut. Then all newcut dies were destroyed to stop novodel production. Then new dies were cut to produce novodel sets for industrial fair. Then they were destroyed. Then the new dies were cut... Etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted January 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 I get that, thank you. Is there any literature (apart from GM) specifically on novodels that would include these and other novodels that I may be able to get? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 There are plenty of books that list novodels. Brekke lists novodels; Bitkin does. Hard to find a catalog that does not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted January 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Listings I am aware of, what about some stories, documents, history? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Listings I am aware of, what about some stories, documents, history? Brekke. Chapter on Novodels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Uzdenikov has plenty of Novodel material if i remember correctly. Cant find mine right now, but its here somewhere in my piles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted January 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Any idea why 1 k 1761 is missing? Coins: ..........Novodels: ___________________________ ................... 1760 10 Коp ................... 1760 4 Коp 1760 2 Коp (!!) 1760 1 Коp (!!) ................... 1760 Denga ____________________________ ................... 1761 10 Коp ................... 1761 4 Коp ................... 1761 2 Коp ................... = EMPTY = ................... 1761 Деньга ____________________________ 1762 10 Коp 1762 4 Коp 1762 2 Коp 1762 1 Коp 1762 Denga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 maybe the person who ordered it did not know about it... Or, had an original 1 kop :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted January 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 If it was only one strike of these novodels, I would agree, but there were multiple strikes with different die sets (as far as I understand)... It is really strange, if you ask me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.