alexbq2 Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 I just wanted to hear some opinions on these deformed stars that are considered to be signs of a pattern by some and rejected as edging anomaly by others. edit: looks like the image did not work out but it can still be found at the auction site. Where did the information about the 1897 pattern come from? Does anyone have any other images? I've seen some images and discussions on Russian coin forums, and I even own a coin that has the same defect. I doubt all of them could be patterns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 I looked at these pictures, and was surprised to see that the "birdies" (птички or "ptichki" which can also mean "checkmarks" or ticks) actually look very much like the ones shown in Uzdenikov and Bitkin. But I have seen other coins purported to be Brussels pattern roubles -- one from the 2007 or 2008 New York Sale, I believe, which I actually looked at in person and tried unsuccessfully to photograph -- that look entirely different. There were smaller and larger stars used in Brussels. These so-called "birdies" are almost always small stars which got broken or otherwise deformed during the edging process. Kazakov states categorically that "there is no such thing" as pattern roubles with birdies, but merely "interesting varieties of an edge" (i.e. mint errors). Some have two birdies, others just one birdie next to a regular star. To me, this also is somewhat illogical -- why have two different versions of a pattern coin? Besides that, these coins are almost always found in F/VF condition. Other patterns, as we usually encounter, are almost always AU/UNC because they didn't circulate. Why are these never found in higher condition? Doesn't seem typical for a pattern. Here is my "birdie" (with large stars, though): I like it, because the broken star really looks like a little bird! But it's nothing special, and the coin itself is in XF condition at best. Paid about $30 for it at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altyn Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Here is a nice recent article showing how "birdies" are derived from deteriorated stars. The text is in Russian but the illustrations are self-explanatory. "Birdies" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Here is a nice recent article showing how "birdies" are derived from deteriorated stars. The text is in Russian but the illustrations are self-explanatory. "Birdies" Very nice explanation, and good pictures (I wonder how he was able to find so many edges like this at once, though?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterShell Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Very nice explanation, and good pictures (I wonder how he was able to find so many edges like this at once, though?) As I understood .. maybe not correctly ... author of the article "produced" personaly those edges .. explaining also that it is nothing special in it and only Uzdenikov is treating this as something special.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 As I understood .. maybe not correctly ... author of the article "produced" personaly those edges .. explaining also that it is nothing special in it and only Uzdenikov is treating this as something special.. The edges and coins are original, genuine specimens, as far as I can tell. Severin does not mention them, and references about these coins which were written later than Uzdenikov's book all refer to Uzdenikov. I don't know if anyone before Uzdenikov mentions these, nor where he got the information. However, Kazakov (e.g.) also says that they are nothing special. But if you bought one of these at an auction and paid a few thousand for it, it is likely that you aren't going to sell it for less (and the auction houses will certainly not try to talk you out of it ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted February 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Here is a nice recent article showing how "birdies" are derived from deteriorated stars. The text is in Russian but the illustrations are self-explanatory. "Birdies" Thanks! An interesting article. I guess Mr. Basilio either got a good deal on his "birdies" (he states that he spent just over $1000 on the research for this project), or whoever bought the Kunker coin spent too much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 i believe that in order to find out what pattern means in this case - need to search for belgian mint mark: does it show up on belgian coins in what form or one was made for russian rubles only? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 i believe that in order to find out what pattern means in this case - need to search for belgian mint mark: does it show up on belgian coins in what form or one was made for russian rubles only? I don't know anything about Belgian coins, but I'm pretty sure that the stars (one for Paris and two for Brussels) were used only for Russian coins. Besides, the dies and edging devices were prepared in St. Petersburg and shipped to those cities, if memory serves me correctly. I remember reading somewhere that the roubles and poltinas with 180 degree die rotation were also produced in one of these cities, as opposed to St. Petersburg, because the workers there sometimes got the die orientation mixed up. But does anyone know if there is an earlier source of information about these "birdie patterns" than Uzdenikov? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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