anyone have pics of 17th/18th century Swedish copper? Thoughts about overstriking / use of minted coins as blanks...

[oregoncoin]

You know you're staring at your 18th-century Russian copper too much when you think everything is double struck, clashed, struck on older coins, struck on foreign coins, etc. It's easy to imagine things that aren't there after a while.

 

That said, does anyone have any pics of common circulating Swedish copper coins from the 1600s and 1700s that could have been used by Russian mints as blanks for their coins?

 

It seems to me that some coins would be more likely candidates than others. That is, Swedish coins whose circulating value was about the price of copper or lower at the time would have been great to use as blanks.

 

Imagine the hassle and expense of melting down a bunch of copper, rolling it out into even sheets, punching out coin blanks, etc. - especially when it's cold outside. Compare that to the relative ease of sending some guys to a neighboring country to collect a few wagon loads of copper coins, or offering neighboring country banks a small premium to export copper specie. I actually wonder if Russia's constant switching around of copper standards was related to similar switching around in Sweden, and vice versa? Were the two locked in a parallel monetary/economic warfare of sorts? Was this the reason for what seem to be repeated attempts to decouple copper coins' face value and intrinsic value throughout the 18th century (think of those little copper dalers from the early 17-teens that caused problems in Sweden, and little copper kopeks of the late 1720s, or experiments like plate money and the Sestroretsk ruble).

 

Were those attempts to prevent mass export of coins as blanks, or were coin weights, compositions (harder=more difficult to use as blanks), and designs (higher relief=more difficult to use as blanks) carefully calculated so as not to correspond to any even denominations of the neighbor or to otherwise make their use as blanks attractive? I'm thinking of the polushkas and dengas of the 1730s to 1750s - most years mass-produced in hard copper alloys, in odd weights that don't exactly correspond to other circulating coins, with the Russian crest in very high relief. Perhaps that's why most of those coins are still around, whereas it seems like most large kopeks (of both main designs) of Peter and 1727(?) groshes got used as denga blanks, most small kopeks of Catherine I and Peter II got used as polushka blanks, most Baroque/"Dalquest" kopeks got used as 2 kopek blanks under Elizabeth and Catherine II and 4 kopek blanks under Peter III, etc.

 

Was recoining used as much to stifle public memory of past royalty as it was to cause coinage shortages and economic problems in neighboring countries?

 

I'm sure someone out there knows the real answer - I'm just purely speculating. I also want to see some actual pics of Swedish coins to get a better idea of whether my own coins really have crowns, arrows, etc., under the designs of some of my Catherine II copper dengas, kopeks, and 2 kopek coins, or if I'm just imagining things. Thanks!

[alexbq2]

These are very complicated questions. I can recommend a book by Yucht (not sure that this is the correct spelling) but it is in Russian only as far as I know, and Spassky's Russian Monetary System.

 

I think most of the shifts in the coin weight were driven by Russia's economic pressures. Needs to finance wars. Difficulties with holding off the inflation of the paper money. Etc, etc, etc...

 

I seem to recall seeing only the kopeek coins of Elisabeth minted on Swedish ore. But perhaps there were other coins? I'm sure you can find some images of Swedish coins online, here's a search on Omnicoin:

 

http://www.omnicoin.com/search/?tp=1&s_a=&s_e=&s_o=&category=1000&country=Sweden&yf=1700&yt=1760

 

I think the last coin (1743 1 ore) is what the kopeeks were made of. Also, the coin above - 1718 Daller is the prototype for the denga coins of 1730-1754.

[one-kuna]

You know you're staring at your 18th-century Russian copper too much when you think everything is double struck, clashed, struck on older coins, struck on foreign coins, etc. It's easy to imagine things that aren't there after a while.

 

That said, does anyone have any pics of common circulating Swedish copper coins from the 1600s and 1700s that could have been used by Russian mints as blanks for their coins?

 

It seems to me that some coins would be more likely candidates than others. That is, Swedish coins whose circulating value was about the price of copper or lower at the time would have been great to use as blanks.

 

Imagine the hassle and expense of melting down a bunch of copper, rolling it out into even sheets, punching out coin blanks, etc. - especially when it's cold outside. Compare that to the relative ease of sending some guys to a neighboring country to collect a few wagon loads of copper coins, or offering neighboring country banks a small premium to export copper specie. I actually wonder if Russia's constant switching around of copper standards was related to similar switching around in Sweden, and vice versa? Were the two locked in a parallel monetary/economic warfare of sorts? Was this the reason for what seem to be repeated attempts to decouple copper coins' face value and intrinsic value throughout the 18th century (think of those little copper dalers from the early 17-teens that caused problems in Sweden, and little copper kopeks of the late 1720s, or experiments like plate money and the Sestroretsk ruble).

 

Were those attempts to prevent mass export of coins as blanks, or were coin weights, compositions (harder=more difficult to use as blanks), and designs (higher relief=more difficult to use as blanks) carefully calculated so as not to correspond to any even denominations of the neighbor or to otherwise make their use as blanks attractive? I'm thinking of the polushkas and dengas of the 1730s to 1750s - most years mass-produced in hard copper alloys, in odd weights that don't exactly correspond to other circulating coins, with the Russian crest in very high relief. Perhaps that's why most of those coins are still around, whereas it seems like most large kopeks (of both main designs) of Peter and 1727(?) groshes got used as denga blanks, most small kopeks of Catherine I and Peter II got used as polushka blanks, most Baroque/"Dalquest" kopeks got used as 2 kopek blanks under Elizabeth and Catherine II and 4 kopek blanks under Peter III, etc.

 

Was recoining used as much to stifle public memory of past royalty as it was to cause coinage shortages and economic problems in neighboring countries?

 

I'm sure someone out there knows the real answer - I'm just purely speculating. I also want to see some actual pics of Swedish coins to get a better idea of whether my own coins really have crowns, arrows, etc., under the designs of some of my Catherine II copper dengas, kopeks, and 2 kopek coins, or if I'm just imagining things. Thanks!

 

russian coppers with traces of swedish are met very seldom

and collectors pay high prices for these

[gxseries]

The only person that I know that has clear overstruck Swedish ore coin is mawett.

 

You can see his coin on omnicoin:

 

 

Here's mine:

 

 

And this is squirrel's

 

 

I am speculating that these coins were overstruck in Sestroretsk mint. There is a good reason how the Swedish coins even came to circulation as there was a war with Russia and Sweden in around 1740s. Russian sailors would be bringing home lots of trophies.

 

These coins DO command a good premium and if you have an example like mawett with a clear date, that will cost you a good arm there. It's not really true that Swedish coins were the only foreign coins used as blanks. Sadagura coins were used as blanks in Moscow Mint back in 1795. That is a lot tougher to find.

[ScottO]

however sweden was one of the few country to be using casting rather then hammered/milled in the early/mid 17th century

my only swedish coinage from the period

[grivna1726]

I think most of the shifts in the coin weight were driven by Russia's economic pressures. Needs to finance wars. Difficulties with holding off the inflation of the paper money. Etc, etc, etc...

This is also my understanding. The Swedish plates were a response to a shortage of circulating silver paid out in war reparations (to Denmark, if memory is correct). The plates were a form of copper bullion intended to soak up domestic production and to help hold up the value of copper in both internal and external markets.

 

Russia had little domestic silver production, most early 18th century coins being struck or otherwise derived from various European talers. Russia, like Sweden, also had substantial copper production and the successful Swedish plate program inspired the abortive Russian experiment with copper plate money.

 

It seems to me that despite the Great Northern War and other tensions that existed between Sweden and Russia, they likely had a common interest in keeping copper from dropping too much in value on world markets. Overstriking copper (with possible exception of Paul's reoverstrikes) was typically for economic (rather than political) reasons, balancing state profits from face value of coins produced over bullion value of copper, fluctuating world prices and making counterfeiting profitable when the difference between face and intrinsic values became too great (resulting in recall and overstriking of lightweight Peter II kopeks under Anna). Overstriking silver and gold was usually for political reasons (such as preventing challenges to the occupant of the throne).

 

I think the last coin (1743 1 ore) is what the kopeeks were made of. Also, the coin above - 1718 Daller is the prototype for the denga coins of 1730-1754.

The majority of the Eagle in Clouds kopeks of Elizabeth that I have seen were overstuck on the lightweight krestovik pyataks of the 1720s. I believe overstrikes on Swedish coins are scarce to rare and were more likely flukes than the product of a deliberate plan.

 

I am not so sure that the denga coins of 1730-54 were inspired by the ruinous Swedish experience with wildly inflated Gortz dalers. If I recall correctly, Baron Gortz met with a most unpleasant end as a result of his funny money experiment. The 1730-54 denga coins were intended to lower the face value of the coins to something closer to their intrinsic value, quite the opposite intention of the Gortz tokens.

 

Perhaps one of the copper specialists could shed further light on the matter.

[alexbq2]

I am not so sure that the denga coins of 1730-54 were inspired by the ruinous Swedish experience with wildly inflated Gortz dalers. If I recall correctly, Baron Gortz met with a most unpleasant end as a result of his funny money experiment. The 1730-54 denga coins were intended to lower the face value of the coins to something closer to their intrinsic value, quite the opposite intention of the Gortz tokens.

 

Perhaps one of the copper specialists could shed further light on the matter.

 

I meant stylistically inspired by the Daller. At least with regard to the Reverse.

[one-kuna]

You know you're staring at your 18th-century Russian copper too much when you think everything is double struck, clashed, struck on older coins, struck on foreign coins, etc. It's easy to imagine things that aren't there after a while.

 

That said, does anyone have any pics of common circulating Swedish copper coins from the 1600s and 1700s that could have been used by Russian mints as blanks for their coins?

 

 

dear oregoncoin, correct me if I missed your point:

your question is NOT about plate money, right?

[grivna1726]

I meant stylistically inspired by the Daller. At least with regard to the Reverse.

Ah, I see. You are correct, the similarity in the design is remarkable.

[grivna1726]

.