How coins were marketed to the general public during the Soviet era

[Loyal Citizen]

Foreword: very surpized that some words came not from candidate

Then,

1.Living in very small russian (former russian, or former soviet) cities sometimes completely bypassed such issues as silver/gold/platinum collecting

2.Olimpic wasn't considered because majority of russian population were not able to get it and it was generally dedicated to one event (all my statements reffered to soviets, then by name russians, - simply comes from context)

3.unfortunately to oppose this statement ONE need to be familiar with the hundreds of auctions which took place in soviet union, for example early time 1927 - 1933, and this can be found in my new coming book

 

Thank you for a very polite answer. I am not even insulted by the "very small russian" town label

 

First of all, congrats on your "new coming book" ! Is it in English or Russian ?

 

Second, ok, you do not want to count Moscow Olympic sets as proof production because "majority of russian population were not able to get it and it was generally dedicated to one event" (the reason itself sounds pretty weak). Anyway, what about 1921-1928 regular series ? They were not dedicated to "one event", were they ?

 

Anyway, my point was that we have to be fair and objective. That's it.

 

Also, I hope the guy gets fair treatment in Russia after all. It could be even helpful to submit a petition ... possibly ?

[grivna1726]

... ok, you do not want to count Moscow Olympic sets as proof production because "majority of russian population were not able to get it and it was generally dedicated to one event" (the reason itself sounds pretty weak).

GX recently posted a 1990 palladium coin with an English-only COA. Maybe there was also a separate Russian-language COA which has been lost. If not, the absence of a Russian COA suggests something about the intended market for these at the time of issue.

 

I do not know about the Moscow Olympics issues in precious metals, but my understanding is that they were not offered for sale to collectors within the Soviet Union and were intended only for export. Please correct me if I am misinformed. The coins were available to me at the time of issue, but since I am typically not very interested in NCLT issues, I did not pay much attention to them.

[Loyal Citizen]

GX recently posted a 1990 palladium coin with an English-only COA. Maybe there was also a separate Russian-language COA which has been lost. If not, the absence of a Russian COA suggests something about the intended market for these at the time of issue.

 

I do not know about the Moscow Olympics issues in precious metals, but my understanding is that they were not offered for sale to collectors within the Soviet Union and were intended only for export. Please correct me if I am misinformed. The coins were available to me at the time of issue, but since I am typically not very interested in NCLT issues, I did not pay much attention to them.

Well, the Olympic coins were available to the public in mid 1980s in the USSR. They were sold in the state jewelry stores for 50 and 100 rubles (correspondingly for 5 and 10 silver rubles). I bought my first Olympic proof coins this way in 1985. I did not see gold and platinum coins for sale, though.

[Saor Alba]

Here is example of a medal of Lev Tolstoy that was made in 1970s and sold to western tourists by Mezhnumizmatika in Moscow:

 

 

Of course it was only made available to western tourists, who really would have been the only ones able to afford it. And these were priced at ridiculously high prices even by western standards. In Russia today this would be high priced medal, has 17 grammes of gold in it, and is rare. In the USA it is nothing but .900 fine of 17 grammes of gold - which is what I paid - actual gold melt value.

 

Collecting in USSR, yes it was possible. Mostly collecting was confined to pyatakii of Catherine II and really worn out Tsarist or early USSR coins. It was possible to find and collect the 5, 10 rublei coins of Tsar Nicholas also, where there was a will there was a way and someone willing to sell to you. Not all of this was legal then, and even in early days of Russian Federation. Stupid laws exists everywhere, even in Russia. They are applied sometimes erratically, even in the USA it is possible to find ridiculous laws - and in future maybe many more with regards to imports of ancient coins from Greece, Italy and Cyprus. Collectors always find way if they are willing.

[RW Julian]

Thank you for your reply and firsthand information.

 

Does anyone know if Moscow Olympic coins in gold, platinum or other non-silver precious metals were available to collectors in the Soviet Union? I had thought that only the base metal coins were offered there but I was obviously mistaken, at least in the case of the silver pieces.

In the late 1970s and early 1980s a Moscow friend had great difficulty in obtaining the silver Olympic

coins. I purchased some of them for him and was able to deliver them through people visiting Moscow.

I know that some of the pieces were sent him via registered mail from Western Europe but were seized

as contraband by Soviet customs.

 

RWJ

[alexbq2]

In the late 1970s and early 1980s a Moscow friend had great difficulty in obtaining the silver Olympic

coins. I purchased some of them for him and was able to deliver them through people visiting Moscow.

I know that some of the pieces were sent him via registered mail from Western Europe but were seized

as contraband by Soviet customs.

 

RWJ

 

I could be wrong but I believe that there were restrictions in the USSR on trade (to and by its citizens) in coins made out of precious metals. I think that the prices of 50 and 100 rubles for the silver 5 and 10 ruble coins highlight that. By that days official exchange rate it would be roughly $75 and $150. At the same time I think my parent's combined income was 500 roubles/month. Even if gold coins were available to USSR citizens it is hard to imagine that anyone could afford them, and those who could would potentially expose themselves to the authorities by making such extravagant purchases.

[gxseries]

I reckon there's very little information other than first hand information about how the generic public in the Soviet Union or tourists get their coins. If there are any other information, please feel free to add here.

 

I've retrieved posts from the other thread and combined them in here.

[BKB]

I know that one-kuna has serious insight into the subject. I hope he will share. From what I remember, in small towns, and I am from one, you could not buy any of this stuff in stores. A numismatic club would get a limited number of sets or coins in precious metal, and an unlimited number of nickel coins. The precious metal stuff always went to senior club members, we, little guys, got nothing. I still have 2 complete sets of nickel stuff (1, 3, & 5 rubles + part of the Red Book) going through the end of USSR.

[one-kuna]

I know that one-kuna has serious insight into the subject. I hope he will share. From what I remember, in small towns, and I am from one, you could not buy any of this stuff in stores. A numismatic club would get a limited number of sets or coins in precious metal, and an unlimited number of nickel coins. The precious metal stuff always went to senior club members, we, little guys, got nothing. I still have 2 complete sets of nickel stuff (1, 3, & 5 rubles + part of the Red Book) going through the end of USSR.

Bravo BKB on last post from topic locked. Your education and especially your practice allow you to find such simple words in order to explain the argument some have with precious metal in former soviet union time.

I also agree with alexbq and pls others keep this as a main reason that the low income (please put yourself in very low income against expensive coins and monthly family expensive) did not allow the russian polulation purchase olimpic coins in precious metal (some who could afford them - were very little numbers).

I absolutly agree with RWJ that some were delivered those coins into USSR, because even there, there were no chance to buy them by different reasons. One of the reason was that coins were not available for population before, during and after olimpic. Does anyone clearly understand the situation that in 1980 it was a big problem to find it for sale in USSR. Even that, let say you have money for these, how many people could afford that if the cost of the gold set was about the cost of new car?

From a city with few millons I knew only two (coin) idiots who did that. But doing so, they were very risky and then famous as a top american celebrities.

As I know, coins were available in the stores where KGB agents were waiting for you to purchase them and to take you out and question you where in that time you got so much money if your (and every one in whole country the wages were about EQUAL!!!) waiges were 120 rubles per month, and so on. The individals who anyway made purchases understood that they could been taken to the custody and get arrested for that with further confiscation; i think it is clear now and no need to continue.

Now, why would ONE boasting that bought these coins FIVE years later, does it cover the answer to what I am pointed out here? NO. Later, in 1988, when USSR began issuing silver, gold, platinum and palladium sets - BKB is right again that for large city with few million population there were a chance to get just COUPLE full sets with precious metals, and loose other coins but with no boxes. Demand was not so high but it was and at that time I could afford it only two silver 1988 but had a chance for one gold but prefferd to purchase Peter II ruble instead. The rest of collectors, few hundred club members and others who could afford it could get only an air insted.

[Saor Alba]

Curiously during the USSR - you could not take paper money out of country from USSR - had to exchange all the paper money into coins - which was good in way because they gave lots of 5 Ruble commemoratives from recent years, all CuNi of course - but great coins of Arkhangel Sobor etc. But I also bring out the ubiquitous pyataks and denezhki from Ekaterina II - no ask, no tell, no problem.

[gxseries]

Interesting stories. I'm still puzzled over why the Russian mints generally do not provide boxes and COAs for their coins even up to this day. They might come in boxes when it comes to platinum and palladium sets but not for the "cheap silver" coins. Sure, there are many people who say buy the coins and not the packaging but they look better when they appear in nice packaging. Would you buy a wedding ring without the box? Would be kinda odd.

 

Just in case someone is interested in how Mezhnumizmatika marketed back then, here's a nice poster: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/rus_new_type/soviet_posters.htm

 

I know that lots of you would have seen it by now.

 

Regarding about the Soviet Olympic coins, you need to know that the Soviets pratically minted coins at the worst time ever. It's probably not even close to today's metal prices if you factor in inflation. I urge you to check the metal prices from 1975-1980s at kitco.com and you'll see my point why. The Hunter Brothers might have single handly messed around with the silver market but both the gold and platinum market shot up during 1980. I'm not too sure at what price the Soviet Mints bought their metals but I'm sure there's no way they could have made profit when metal prices collapsed and people around the world were boycotting Soviet goods.

 

Prices of silver Olympics coins of 50 and 100 rubles made sense - assuming if the official exchange rate back then is 75 dollars and 150 dollars, silver prices started around 4USD / oz. 10 ruble coin was about an ounce so about 5USD - so it was about 4 rubles or so. Prices shot up to 50usd/oz and the Soviet mints still kept on striking coins so the mints were forced to keep on striking them even at a loss. Let's say even if Russia was not an open economy back then, I doubt that the mints were able to buy metals at a cheaper rate.

 

I'm not too sure if it applies to the Soviet government but during 1988 when S. Korea had her Olympics in 1988, the Korean mint struck way too many coins and the government was forced to buy them back and melt them for bullion.

[one-kuna]

Interesting stories. I'm still puzzled over why the Russian mints generally do not provide boxes and COAs for their coins even up to this day. They might come in boxes when it comes to platinum and palladium sets but not for the "cheap silver" coins. Sure, there are many people who say buy the coins and not the packaging but they look better when they appear in nice packaging. Would you buy a wedding ring without the box? Would be kinda odd.

 

Just in case someone is interested in how Mezhnumizmatika marketed back then, here's a nice poster: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/rus_new_type/soviet_posters.htm

 

I know that lots of you would have seen it by now.

 

Regarding about the Soviet Olympic coins, you need to know that the Soviets pratically minted coins at the worst time ever. It's probably not even close to today's metal prices if you factor in inflation. I urge you to check the metal prices from 1975-1980s at kitco.com and you'll see my point why. The Hunter Brothers might have single handly messed around with the silver market but both the gold and platinum market shot up during 1980. I'm not too sure at what price the Soviet Mints bought their metals but I'm sure there's no way they could have made profit when metal prices collapsed and people around the world were boycotting Soviet goods.

 

Prices of silver Olympics coins of 50 and 100 rubles made sense - assuming if the official exchange rate back then is 75 dollars and 150 dollars, silver prices started around 4USD / oz. 10 ruble coin was about an ounce so about 5USD - so it was about 4 rubles or so. Prices shot up to 50usd/oz and the Soviet mints still kept on striking coins so the mints were forced to keep on striking them even at a loss. Let's say even if Russia was not an open economy back then, I doubt that the mints were able to buy metals at a cheaper rate.

 

I'm not too sure if it applies to the Soviet government but during 1988 when S. Korea had her Olympics in 1988, the Korean mint struck way too many coins and the government was forced to buy them back and melt them for bullion.

you are welcome if you like my posts;

the reason why boxes and certificates are not provided up to now for some coins is very simple - such coins in plastic can be found adn distributed through the jewelry stores and many banks (for example in Moscow) so no boxes needed even it does sound strange to you - but that is what it is; in spite for mezhnumizmatika, government official stores, custom stores and for export - cois accompany with boxes and certificates; from this is your answer - more coins are without boxes for local population and of course I almost forgot - cheaper than boxed ones!

[thedeadpoint]

Saving for later for a read when I'm awake.

[alexbq2]

All this talk about the 1980 Olympic sets reminded me that I have something that's not exactly Russian made, but historically extremely ironic (that's the reason why I bought it).

 

I hope that everyone remembers that the Americans boycotted the games because of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. So I'm surprised that these medals were not melted down:

 

 

Forgot to mention that they were made in France:

[gxseries]

Very interesting Alex, I like it!

 

So BKB or one-kuna, from what I understand, most of the commemorative nickel-copper ruble coins were available at face value. But how about proof versions that came in cellophane packaging? Also the same proof rubles in fanciful plastic casing? I'm curious to know how much more expensive they were.

 

Speaking of which, I don't even know how current coins are distributed other than via Sberbank. Don't know how they are marketed overseas but I'm sure it's almost nil. Don't get me wrong, both St. Petersburg and Moscow can make really nice presentation and I'm happy to pay for the ridicious markup but they are just SCARCE.

[Saor Alba]

GX, We both know that even in same series packaging seemed to change with the winds - look at colours in the mint sets holders to see examples - curiously some were black sometimes - but mostly they were red. It seems like packaging was subject to what was currently available. So maybe with the COA's it was the same thing - they ran out and went ahead and shipped the coins off to MTD and their other western brokers without them.

 

One thing I can remember collecting during the USSR era easily, you could purchase them if you could find them, were table medals. It was easy to find Lenin of course, but I have some of Mikhail Lomonosov, Lev Tolstoy etc. They were sold in select shops when I was in the Far East of Russia.

[grivna1726]

Thank you to all who responded. This is a fascinating thread.

 

The account of Soviet customs seizing Soviet coins as contraband seems utterly bizarre to me. Bureaucracy gone mad, I suppose.

[Loyal Citizen]

Interesting stories. I'm still puzzled over why the Russian mints generally do not provide boxes and COAs for their coins even up to this day.

I do not think this assumption is 100% accurate. For example, same Olympic sets issued in late 1970s had various kind of COAs and various kind of boxes for gold,platinum and silver sets (both MS and PF).

....Prices of silver Olympics coins of 50 and 100 rubles made sense - assuming if the official exchange rate back then is 75 dollars and 150 dollars ....

....

I am not really sure where "...75 dollars and 100 dollars..." came from. I believe the official exchange rate at that time was set at 90 kopeks = US$1.

As to the retail prices for 5 and 10 roubles proof Olympic coins, they were set at 50 and 100 roubles correspondingly as I've mentioned above. One could easily buy those coins in regular state jewelry stores. The reason for such a high price was not the price of silver at that time - those coins were simply considered a jewelry work and as any work it had premium.

[Candidate]

I believe the official exchange rate at that time was set at 90 kopeks = US$1.

The official exchange rate of $ 1. = 90 kop. was set till 1971.

In the 80's it fluctuated around $1. = 60 kop.

 

http://www.cbr.ru/currency_base/OldVal.aspx

[alexbq2]

The official exchange rate of $ 1. = 90 kop. was set till 1971.

In the 80's it fluctuated around $1. = 60 kop.

 

http://www.cbr.ru/currency_base/OldVal.aspx

 

Yes, I recall it was about 60 kop.

[Loyal Citizen]

Yes, I recall it was about 60 kop.

 

Well, it makes sence then. I guess I'm old enough to remember 90 kopeks

[alexbq2]

Well, it makes sence then. I guess I'm old enough to remember 90 kopeks

 

I think anyone who remembers when the ruble was more expensive than the dollar has a right to start feeling old

[grivna1726]

I think anyone who remembers when the ruble was more expensive than the dollar has a right to start feeling old

 

This must have been the official rate. I seem to remember the rouble (outside the Soviet Union) was offered for far less and that a much better exchange rate for the dollar was simlarly offered within the USSR on the black market. I also understand that it was illegal to bring roubles into the USSR or to purchase them privately at less than the official rate from people there, so either of these actions apparently carried significant risks.

[alexbq2]

these actions apparently carried significant risks.

 

As I recall some people were executed by a firing squad! They actually managed to amass quite an impressive fortune. The law was changed to carry the death penalty after their arrest, and the punishment was applied retroactively to them - which as I understand is not at a common legal practice!

[grivna1726]

As I recall some people were executed by a firing squad! They actually managed to amass quite an impressive fortune. The law was changed to carry the death penalty after their arrest, and the punishment was applied retroactively to them - which as I understand is not at a common legal practice!

Well, that's certainly a significant risk.

 

What is or is not a common or acceptable legal practice depends upon the interests of the governments that make the laws. Populations can accept virtually any abuse or injustice that is done to those outside the group. George Orwell understood this with clarity. See his 1945 essay, Notes on Nationalism.

 

Here is a Russian translation for those who might prefer it.