nutmegcollector Posted November 11, 2010 Report Share Posted November 11, 2010 I recently bought my second Ming Dynasty 1 Kuan note (shown on the bottom) from a college history instructor in China. This note is possibly a modern forgery. Maybe it's my imagination, but the note appears to be printed on felt-like material to resemble mulberry paper. Other than that, it's hard to tell the difference between the two notes. If it's a forgery, it's a very good forgery. Can anybody verify if this one is real or fake? My first 1 Kuan note (shown on the top) was bought nine years ago from Ponterio & Associates auction of the Ed Bohannon Collection of Chinese Paper Money. Ed Bohannon is a regular contributor of the Standard Catalog of World Paper Money. This one is genuine and I paid almost 10 times more for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted November 11, 2010 Report Share Posted November 11, 2010 Nutmegcollector - The only people I know of who have on/had one are you and Saor Alba. Although I think that an email to Erwin Beyer (Chinnotes) might be quite useful for information on this. He's quite knowledgeable about Chinese notes and what their supposed to look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saor Alba Posted November 11, 2010 Report Share Posted November 11, 2010 The main difference that stands out from the get go is that the semi flourescent red ink is not so on the second note. The "genuine" notes I have seen have had that red ink that is more like the red seal ink that has a more flourescent nature to it. Another key would be to look at the note against direct light and check the grain of the paper - mulberry bark paper is thinner and more transparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMMM Posted November 13, 2010 Report Share Posted November 13, 2010 You can always have it sent out to be carbon dated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMMM Posted November 19, 2010 Report Share Posted November 19, 2010 Would the original banknotes use wood blocks to print these and the copies use metal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutmegcollector Posted November 19, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2010 Would the original banknotes use wood blocks to print these and the copies use metal? How can you tell the difference whether it was printed on wood or metal block? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saor Alba Posted November 19, 2010 Report Share Posted November 19, 2010 There would be differences but they would be minimal though, but a maximum of time to detect betwixt wood and metal printing blocks. Frankly it would be easier to print them using wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMMM Posted November 19, 2010 Report Share Posted November 19, 2010 How can you tell the difference whether it was printed on wood or metal block? I would think with wood you would see more imperfections, unequal ink distribution, and lines. Metal much less so since the surface would be more uniform. Kind of like finger prints. A magnify glass and a good pool of notes may help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saor Alba Posted November 19, 2010 Report Share Posted November 19, 2010 I would think with wood you would see more imperfections, unequal ink distribution, and lines. Metal much less so since the surface would be more uniform. Kind of like finger prints. A magnify glass and a good pool of notes may help. Depends on what kind of wood you are using, for instance if you use a hard wood you will have fewer imperfections in the wood if it is finely finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutmegcollector Posted November 19, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2010 Depends on what kind of wood you are using, for instance if you use a hard wood you will have fewer imperfections in the wood if it is finely finished. So, were my notes printed on wood or on metal? I can't tell by looking at them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted November 19, 2010 Report Share Posted November 19, 2010 According to Certain Old Chinese Notes by Andrew MacFarland Davis, his book states that the wood blocks were used up until the year 1168, and after that they started the use of copper plates. THere is also a reference to the Mongols using them in 1277, but that was evidently their adoption of the technology already in place of the territory they conquered. If you haven't a copy of the book, it can be found on Amazon, or at this link http://www.archive.org/stream/certainoldchines00daviiala#page/n9/mode/2up which has the benefit of being free, and searchable. You can find several references to printing through the search function at the top right. It operates as a book, so clicking on the right page advances one page and clickin on the left page advances to the left. Should you desire to print or save a copy, there are several options at the base page here: http://www.archive.org/details/certainoldchines00daviiala It is a fascinating read and I think that you would find it quite informative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted November 19, 2010 Report Share Posted November 19, 2010 In speaking to the differences in block printing, there can be differences. I have made a reference to this on my site under Chinese Banknotes, but I will reproduce here for convenience. When image printed was worn out and remade, there could be different artists who made them in different areas, each one being slighty off from the other. THis is because in later years (much after this note of Nutmegcollectors) printers were often times selling their designs to whomever would buy them, and if a need arose, the original artist might not be around to reproduce the needed block. This idea of th same instance of different artists could be entertained even back in the early Ming Dynasty. THese two notes are from different institutions, but are the same image. Note the various discrepancies between the two. The background hatch, the items on teh tables, the candleflame, the scenes in the circles, patternso n the curtains, even the perspective on the table! Perhaps such discrepancies might well have happened between groups of notes printed here and another set printed there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutmegcollector Posted November 19, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2010 According to Certain Old Chinese Notes by Andrew MacFarland Davis, his book states that the wood blocks were used up until the year 1168, and after that they started the use of copper plates. THere is also a reference to the Mongols using them in 1277, but that was evidently their adoption of the technology already in place of the territory they conquered. If you haven't a copy of the book, it can be found on Amazon, or at this link http://www.archive.org/stream/certainoldchines00daviiala#page/n9/mode/2up which has the benefit of being free, and searchable. You can find several references to printing through the search function at the top right. It operates as a book, so clicking on the right page advances one page and clickin on the left page advances to the left. Should you desire to print or save a copy, there are several options at the base page here: http://www.archive.org/details/certainoldchines00daviiala It is a fascinating read and I think that you would find it quite informative. Thank you, Dave. Most of the notes in Andrew MacFarland Davis' book came from the same source as my Five Ancient Chinese Notes which have since proved to be forgeries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saor Alba Posted November 19, 2010 Report Share Posted November 19, 2010 It is not just old notes either, sometimes this happens even with modern notes. Malaysia comes to mind with notes that have varieties depending on who printed them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMMM Posted November 19, 2010 Report Share Posted November 19, 2010 It is not just old notes either, sometimes this happens even with modern notes. Malaysia comes to mind with notes that have varieties depending on who printed them. I would think the ink used would also be different depending on if the notes were printed at different times or at different locations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutmegcollector Posted November 19, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2010 I would think the ink used would also be different depending on if the notes were printed at different times or at different locations. I wonder how one can differentiate the genuine notes from the counterfeits if the real ones are not consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMMM Posted November 20, 2010 Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 I wonder how one can differentiate the genuine notes from the counterfeits if the real ones are not consistent. Good point. But there may be a pattern. You could do some analyses to detect the forgeries but first you need a real note as a reference. I would see how much it costs to do micro-spectrophotometery on the notes, it is a non-destructive test. That would definitely distinguish different inks since manufacturing methods are different over time. I may give you a “finger print" to look for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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