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GM auction 193


bobh
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Is there anyone else who thinks there is something strange about this one, or is it just me? :confus:

50 kopecks 1898

 

Hint: Look at how thick the obverse rim is (much too thick, IMHO). Then look at the tip of the bust and compare it with some known genuine coins here:

http://m-dv.ru/catalog/id,418/all-prohod.html

The point of the bust looks too round to me on the GM coin.

 

Also, on genuine coins the loops in the last "8" of the date are more open than the first one (but just very slightly so). I can't see any difference between the "8"s on the GM coin.

 

Finally, the striking around the reverse denticles at the bottom (edge beneath the date) looks very uneven, something very unlikely for such a small number of coins struck. Even if there were 200 and not 10 minted, there should have been only one die per side, and none of the other coin pictures I have seen show such uneven striking.

 

I'm always suspicious when these coins turn up in any kind of condition less than MS. After all, they were reportedly struck only in proof.

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Is there anyone else who thinks there is something strange about this one, or is it just me? :confus:

50 kopecks 1898

Perhaps a Paris striking with the edge changed from * to mintmaster initials. One would think that this

might be reasonably easy to do compared to changing the date on the surface of a coin. I agree with

bobh that the truncation seems wrong for this to be a genuine 1898 St. Petersburg issue. I also agree

that only one pair of dies would have been used for the short run of proofs for collectors.

 

RWJ

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Perhaps a Paris striking with the edge changed from * to mintmaster initials. One would think that this

might be reasonably easy to do compared to changing the date on the surface of a coin. I agree with

bobh that the truncation seems wrong for this to be a genuine 1898 St. Petersburg issue. I also agree

that only one pair of dies would have been used for the short run of proofs for collectors.

 

RWJ

The date would have to have been altered in any case because 1898 poltinas were only struck in St. Petersburg. 1896 has a rim of similar thickness to the GM coin, and it might be hard to see traces of the 6 underneath an 8 on top (as compared to 5 or 7). I am more inclined to think it could be an altered 1896-AG coin.

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Also, why is there a fake Sestroretsk rubel (lot 5159), and why is it estimated at 1200 Euro?

 

http://www.gmcoinart.de/index.php?area=auctions&content=detailansicht&AuID=126&KaID=44288&ObID=1046176810&img=1&moveto=44288&e=

 

:yuk:

 

Gorny seems to have a thing for these fake Sestroretsks and has been selling them for many years. They're always appallingly crude, but for some reason they sell. They sold a 1771, almost as bad as this one, in Sale 173, Lot 8396, for 9000EUR (against an estimate of 2000), and sold another 1771 in 1997 in Sale 86, Lot 2258 (Lot 2257 was Brekke's 1771 Novodel).

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Is there anyone else who thinks there is something strange about this one, or is it just me? :confus:

 

Bobh, this poltinnik 1898 AG-AG came from MiM auction 58 lot 419 ( thank you Alexq ),

was auctioned there with expert certificate signed by I V Shiriakov (chief of numismatic department of the State Historical Museum, Moscow) - hard to argue now :)

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Bobh, this poltinnik 1898 AG-AG came from MiM auction 58 lot 419 ( thank you Alexq ),

was auctioned there with expert certificate signed by I V Shiriakov (chief of numismatic department of the State Historical Museum, Moscow) - hard to argue now :)

I assume that the State Historical Museum has at least one genuine 1898 50 kopeck piece for comparison, but nevertheless I see differences that shouldn't be there.

 

As to GM selling fake coins, just last year I convinced them to withdraw some obviously fake 1899 ten rouble gold coins. So it might be possible to get the fake Sestroretsk rouble removed, who knows?

 

Besides, they clearly state that it is a "Sammleranfertigung" (meaning essentially "collector's replica"), being careful to avoid using the term "Novodel". Anyone who would pay more than €10 for this hunk of metal -- well, it's their money, but they can't complain that they didn't get an original Sestroretsk for it because it isn't advertised as such.

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Thanks for the link, alexbq2. Looking at the coin illustrated in the Russian forum, I see traces of a "5" or perhaps a "9" underneath the "8" on that coin. Also, I don't like the bust. The rim dimensions seem more consistent with those of 1898, but 1899-AG had thinner rims than 1896, too. Also, the coin is struck slightly off-center ... strange for an issue which was meant mostly for presentation to collectors. I would say it is an altered 1899-AG.

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The date would have to have been altered in any case because 1898 poltinas were only struck in St. Petersburg. 1896 has a rim of similar thickness to the GM coin, and it might be hard to see traces of the 6 underneath an 8 on top (as compared to 5 or 7). I am more inclined to think it could be an altered 1896-AG coin.

For some reason I was thinking, without checking a reference, that the Paris

Mint struck 1898 poltinas.

 

RWJ

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Thanks for the link, alexbq2. Looking at the coin illustrated in the Russian forum, I see traces of a "5" or perhaps a "9" underneath the "8" on that coin. Also, I don't like the bust. The rim dimensions seem more consistent with those of 1898, but 1899-AG had thinner rims than 1896, too. Also, the coin is struck slightly off-center ... strange for an issue which was meant mostly for presentation to collectors. I would say it is an altered 1899-AG.

In the 1930s an 1802 or 1803 U.S. silver dollar was expertly altered to 1805, a hitherto

unknown date. The date was carefully examined by several experts in the early 1960s and

no one could detect any problems. Finally someone compared other details of the earlier

dollars and discovered that the date had to have been altered.

 

RWJ

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