5 kopek 1796 - large die clash and doublestrike

[one-kuna]

seller says that it is Paul's ovestruck coin and it is R1 by Bitkin;

besides large die clash and double strike seem like no other traces are visiable:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[nicholasz219]

seller says that it is Paul's ovestruck coin and it is R1 by Bitkin;

besides large die clash and double strike seem like no other traces are visiable:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT

 

 

On these overstrikes, where are the key places to look? Is it in the legend under the eagle? Would that indicate the change in denomination?

 

Thanks,

 

Nick

[STEVE MOULDING]

seller says that it is Paul's ovestruck coin and it is R1 by Bitkin;

besides large die clash and double strike seem like no other traces are visiable:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Agreed. I don't see any cipher under-coin at this point.

[one-kuna]

I wrote to this seller that he sells not the coin he described - the following is his respond:

"Dear Sir, i wlll let the winning bidder know about your opinion. Currenlty i can not change the description as there are already bids on this item. Thank you for your input. Best regards..."

[alexbq2]

I believe eBay will let him change the description even if there are bids on the item. Coinworldtv's unwillingness to change his description suggests that he is purposefully trying to deceive potential buyers. Caveat Emptor!

[BKB]

this is interesting...

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1796-Russian-Empire...

 

I thought it sold.

[alexbq2]

I guess the seller honored his promise and alerted the buyer that this is not a Paul’s overstrike.

 

But why wait till the end of the auction? Wouldn’t it be easier to add a note? Or to cancel the auction and relist the item with the correct title?

[one-kuna]

this is interesting...

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1796-Russian-Empire...

 

I thought it sold.

few hours left for listing with fixed description

[alexbq2]

few hours left for listing with fixed description

 

Funny - it sold for the same amount of money.

 

I was surprised and took a closer look. There's a clear letter K close to the rim at 10 o'clock.

 

Congratulations to the winner of the auction! And my apologies to the seller...

[STEVE MOULDING]

Funny - it sold for the same amount of money.

 

I was surprised and took a closer look. There's a clear letter K close to the rim at 10 o'clock.

 

Congratulations to the winner of the auction! And my apologies to the seller...

Well spotted Alex, With that clue, I used photoshop and lined up this coin with an image of a known cipher and found some other letters. It does indeed appear to be a die clashed Paul overstrike.

 

Best,

 

Steve

[one-kuna]

[bobh]

Well spotted Alex, With that clue, I used photoshop and lined up this coin with an image of a known cipher and found some other letters. It does indeed appear to be a die clashed Paul overstrike.

 

Best,

 

Steve

I bought this coin!

 

Funny thing is, I hadn't really paid attention to this thread, although the coin somehow looked familiar to me. Last night, some little voice told me I should check out eBay and the Russian coins. Almost always I go to the newly listed items, but this time I thought I would check out items soon to expire. Sure enough, with 3 minutes left to go, there was this coin and it was already up to more than $100. Since I immediately spotted the remains of the dividing line (above the date of the cipher undercoin), I realized what it was and bid accordingly. Fortunately, the price didn't go that high!

[STEVE MOULDING]

I bought this coin!

 

Congratulations Bob Glad to see it go to a good home.

[alexbq2]

I bought this coin!

 

Funny thing is, I hadn't really paid attention to this thread, although the coin somehow looked familiar to me. Last night, some little voice told me I should check out eBay and the Russian coins. Almost always I go to the newly listed items, but this time I thought I would check out items soon to expire. Sure enough, with 3 minutes left to go, there was this coin and it was already up to more than $100. Since I immediately spotted the remains of the dividing line (above the date of the cipher undercoin), I realized what it was and bid accordingly. Fortunately, the price didn't go that high!

 

Congratulations! Great Catch!!!

[squirrel]

If I were the seller, I would be pretty pissed off about this. "Experts" hounding him that the coin was not a Paul's overstrike, so he relists it that way, in good faith, and now it is scooped up at a bargain price. So the seller is screwed, not the buyer.

 

I can see if this guy was a know purveyor of fakes, an ironic twist and too bad for him, but I dont think that is the case.

 

I was not following the auction(s) or bidding, and in no way do I begrudge Bobh his prize. It just had to be said.

[alexbq2]

If I were the seller, I would be pretty pissed off about this. "Experts" hounding him that the coin was not a Paul's overstrike, so he relists it that way, in good faith, and now it is scooped up at a bargain price. So the seller is screwed, not the buyer.

 

I can see if this guy was a know purveyor of fakes, an ironic twist and too bad for him, but I dont think that is the case.

 

I was not following the auction(s) or bidding, and in no way do I begrudge Bobh his prize. It just had to be said.

 

For whatever reason, the coin sold for the same amount on the first run - while it was listed as the overstrike. So at least that worked out well.

[Maya]

If I were the seller, I would be pretty pissed off about this. "Experts" hounding him that the coin was not a Paul's overstrike, so he relists it that way, in good faith, and now it is scooped up at a bargain price. So the seller is screwed, not the buyer.

 

I can see if this guy was a know purveyor of fakes, an ironic twist and too bad for him, but I dont think that is the case.

 

I was not following the auction(s) or bidding, and in no way do I begrudge Bobh his prize. It just had to be said.

You are so right, Squirrel. This has nothing to do with Bob purchasing the coin. I am sure we are all very pleased for him, I know I am. It's a great coin and it could not be going to a nicer person. But it does emphasize again how careful we all need to be when expressing our "expert" opinion.

[one-kuna]

If I were the seller, I would be pretty pissed off about this. "Experts" hounding him that the coin was not a Paul's overstrike, so he relists it that way, in good faith, and now it is scooped up at a bargain price. So the seller is screwed, not the buyer.

 

I can see if this guy was a know purveyor of fakes, an ironic twist and too bad for him, but I dont think that is the case.

 

I was not following the auction(s) or bidding, and in no way do I begrudge Bobh his prize. It just had to be said.

1. a seller did not specify what details are considered to be from cipher series

2. a seller simply recognized double strike and clash die as overstruck coin as to my opinion

3. a winner bought this coin by the fact of horizontal line which he considered as a mark from ovesrtuck series (so far was given out over here as a reason of purchase)

4. it would need a better picture anyway when coin received to see detalis of letter K and others which I cannot see so far

5. experts by picture are always good to have but last word to buy a coin is for buyer

 

[bobh]

I wouldn't have too much sympathy for the dealer. For a dealer, being p*ssed off occurs on a daily basis from people who consider themselves experts -- and perhaps from a few who ARE experts! But it comes with the terrain. The only thing is, people who try to bully a dealer into changing a coin's description are also potential customers ... especially if this is a brick-and-mortar establishment. And not a few of them try to do so in order to get a better bargain. Still, the "customer is king", according to an old German adage.

 

An internet seller typically has none of the risks and expenses involved with keeping a physical store location. If they want to be in business as coin dealers, they (the eBay sellers) have much less reason to buckle in to pressure from anyone. But they have to know their coins (i.e. business). It's just part of being a dealer.

 

This coin was initially described by the dealer as being from Paul's recoinage program. Why should he change his mind? Perhaps he just wasn't sure. Doesn't speak too well for the seller, IMHO. He should have stuck by his guns; perhaps withdrawn the auction early and done more research before making up his mind -- THEN relist the coin, maybe a few weeks later. I feel much more sorry for the earlier buyer who decided not to keep this one just because the seller planted the seed of doubt in his or her mind.

 

And, as several have pointed out, the truth will only be known when we can examine this coin more closely. For me, it was worth the risk (but maybe I know a little more about these coins than the other buyer did? )

[sigistenz]

I wouldn't have too much sympathy for the dealer. For a dealer, being p*ssed off occurs on a daily basis from people who consider themselves experts -- and perhaps from a few who ARE experts! But it comes with the terrain. The only thing is, people who try to bully a dealer into changing a coin's description are also potential customers ... especially if this is a brick-and-mortar establishment. And not a few of them try to do so in order to get a better bargain. Still, the "customer is king", according to an old German adage.

 

An internet seller typically has none of the risks and expenses involved with keeping a physical store location. If they want to be in business as coin dealers, they (the eBay sellers) have much less reason to buckle in to pressure from anyone. But they have to know their coins (i.e. business). It's just part of being a dealer.

 

This coin was initially described by the dealer as being from Paul's recoinage program. Why should he change his mind? Perhaps he just wasn't sure. Doesn't speak too well for the seller, IMHO. He should have stuck by his guns; perhaps withdrawn the auction early and done more research before making up his mind -- THEN relist the coin, maybe a few weeks later. I feel much more sorry for the earlier buyer who decided not to keep this one just because the seller planted the seed of doubt in his or her mind.

 

And, as several have pointed out, the truth will only be known when we can examine this coin more closely. For me, it was worth the risk (but maybe I know a little more about these coins than the other buyer did? )

Dear Bob, I must confess that I did not yet recognize any traces of the undercoin. The die clash complicates things. Would you show the criteria? I think it would be worth a new posting because this thread has become lengthy. Thank you, Sigi

[STEVE MOULDING]

Dear Bob, I must confess that I did not yet recognize any traces of the undercoin. The die clash complicates things. Would you show the criteria? I think it would be worth a new posting because this thread has become lengthy. Thank you, Sigi

 

Here are some of the more obvious letters, the first K was pointed out by Alex.

Once you have it all lined up in Photoshop, others jump out in the right places.

[bobh]

Here are some of the more obvious letters, the first K was pointed out by Alex.

Once you have it all lined up in Photoshop, others jump out in the right places.

Thank you, Steve -- and thank you, Alex!

[Maya]

I wouldn't have too much sympathy for the dealer. For a dealer, being p*ssed off occurs on a daily basis from people who consider themselves experts -- and perhaps from a few who ARE experts! But it comes with the terrain. The only thing is, people who try to bully a dealer into changing a coin's description are also potential customers ... especially if this is a brick-and-mortar establishment. And not a few of them try to do so in order to get a better bargain. Still, the "customer is king", according to an old German adage.

 

An internet seller typically has none of the risks and expenses involved with keeping a physical store location. If they want to be in business as coin dealers, they (the eBay sellers) have much less reason to buckle in to pressure from anyone. But they have to know their coins (i.e. business). It's just part of being a dealer.

 

This coin was initially described by the dealer as being from Paul's recoinage program. Why should he change his mind? Perhaps he just wasn't sure. Doesn't speak too well for the seller, IMHO. He should have stuck by his guns; perhaps withdrawn the auction early and done more research before making up his mind -- THEN relist the coin, maybe a few weeks later. I feel much more sorry for the earlier buyer who decided not to keep this one just because the seller planted the seed of doubt in his or her mind.

 

And, as several have pointed out, the truth will only be known when we can examine this coin more closely. For me, it was worth the risk (but maybe I know a little more about these coins than the other buyer did? )

As Alexbq2 pointed out, the price ultimately paid for the coin was the same as that of the previous auction, so the seller didn't lose anything. You, Bobh, got a beautiful coin to help make up for all the ones you didn't get in the past. All the time you put in into study and research paid off. Both the seller and the other buyer should have done their homework. All that is true.

 

However, here was a seller who actually listened to this forum and took what was said seriously, as opposed to all those sellers of fakes who simply ignore anything we have to say. I wouldn't blame this man for never listening to any of us again.

[one-kuna]

I wouldn't have too much sympathy for the dealer. For a dealer, being p*ssed off occurs on a daily basis from people who consider themselves experts -- and perhaps from a few who ARE experts! But it comes with the terrain. The only thing is, people who try to bully a dealer into changing a coin's description are also potential customers ... especially if this is a brick-and-mortar establishment. And not a few of them try to do so in order to get a better bargain. Still, the "customer is king", according to an old German adage.

 

An internet seller typically has none of the risks and expenses involved with keeping a physical store location. If they want to be in business as coin dealers, they (the eBay sellers) have much less reason to buckle in to pressure from anyone. But they have to know their coins (i.e. business). It's just part of being a dealer.

 

This coin was initially described by the dealer as being from Paul's recoinage program. Why should he change his mind? Perhaps he just wasn't sure. Doesn't speak too well for the seller, IMHO. He should have stuck by his guns; perhaps withdrawn the auction early and done more research before making up his mind -- THEN relist the coin, maybe a few weeks later. I feel much more sorry for the earlier buyer who decided not to keep this one just because the seller planted the seed of doubt in his or her mind.

 

And, as several have pointed out, the truth will only be known when we can examine this coin more closely. For me, it was worth the risk (but maybe I know a little more about these coins than the other buyer did? )

thank you for opinion

[STEVE MOULDING]

:

However, here was a seller who actually listened to this forum and took what was said seriously, as opposed to all those sellers of fakes who simply ignore anything we have to say. I wouldn't blame this man for never listening to any of us again.

 

Hi Maya.

 

There was no collective communication from this forum to the seller, so it really wasn't the case that he 'actually listened to this forum' and is somehow justified in 'never listening to any of us again'. One-Kuna wrote to the seller with a good faith opinion, by himself, not representing this forum and, as far as I know, that's it. There was certainly no collective 'hounding' by "experts", and I am somewhat bothered by the implicit suggestion that I was doing the former or am deserving of the latter epithet demeaned with quotation marks. I also am bothered by being lumped into a collective 'us' that the seller would be justified in never listening to again. We have discussions here and offer opinions. Sometimes we're wrong and hopefully we admit that.

 

I think most people understand that what is said here (or, with the same care, outside of here) are opinions, expressed in good faith.

 

Best,

 

Steve