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Dirty Copper 5K 1804EM


kopeikin
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OMG! Please do not risk dinging-up this beautiful coin by checking what ringing sound it makes!

 

(I'll go back to lurking after I save this pyatak.)

Hi, good to see you here. The ring test is being done by placing the suspect on an upright fingertip and clink it slightly with another, similar coin (piatak 1758-1810).

Then do it the other way round. There is no risk of dinging-up. A cast sounds different from a strike.

Not my invention BTW, has been practised for centuries to detect fakes. Sigi :ninja:

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Hi, good to see you here. The ring test is being done by placing the suspect on an upright fingertip and clink it slightly with another, similar coin (piatak 1758-1810).

Then do it the other way round. There is no risk of dinging-up. A cast sounds different from a strike.

Not my invention BTW, has been practised for centuries to detect fakes. Sigi ;)

 

Yes! Welcome to you, Oregoncoin, and please feel free to join any of these topics, even the "entertaining" ones!

If you have any nice copper you want to show off, dont be shy!

 

I have tried Sigi's ring test, on many coins, Copper and Silver, and not had any damage.

:ninja:

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t I decided to take the plunge and post something because I wanted to answer the original poster's question about removing the spots.

 

 

Thank you for trying to steer us back to the original topic.

 

kopeikin,

Have you considered sending this coin to NCS? They have done a very good job removing similarly colored green spots (albeit not as extensive ones) with only marginal loss of dark brown patina from one of my early 19th century Russian coins. Truth is, thought, it turned out those spots were covering pitting. Just a thought...

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Thank you for trying to steer us back to the original topic.

 

kopeikin,

Have you considered sending this coin to NCS? They have done a very good job removing similarly colored green spots (albeit not as extensive ones) with only marginal loss of dark brown patina from one of my early 19th century Russian coins. Truth is, thought, it turned out those spots were covering pitting. Just a thought...

 

NCS would also verify if the coin is authentic. Would love to see this one slabbed as genuine, but I have my doubts... When kuna speaks, it may come across as abrupt at times, but he generally knows what he is talking about. If he says he has info, I would not simply discard it because the coin came from a reputable dealer...

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just some addiiton - if you look just for coins of 1804 from last auctions you never find exactly same dies

One person did very respective investigation for 2 kop 1802 types and published more than 30 (!) variations, now tell me how many of them really published, and how many can be expected for 5 kop 1804

I don'y think you can say in this case from the picture if it's really fake, without having it in hand

Would be interesting to get opinon of BKB

 

Guys, this is not my cup of tea. There is a guy posting in this thread who knows more about this series than I will ever care to know. But, when something does not look right, it does not look right. What more can I say?

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reverse

thank you for showing, this one is genuine one - I can see from picture, and it is a different from suspected one :ninja:

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Here is the story of these "coins", judging from what I have learned in the past few days. Now, this is complete "hearsay." Information comes from 2 people, one of whom was involved in this whole bit from the beginning and who says he recognized this coin. Names are not mentioned on purpose. If any of these guys want to step up and confirm, that would be nice. But, I do not expect that to happen. I have a permission to tell this story as is:

 

A very well known Russian dealer of Russian material in the US (big name) obtained a large number of these. It is not clear whether he knew that these were fake, but the number of identical coins (between 10 and 25) should have raised a suspicion in the very least… Then, he sold 20 of them to two dealers (about 10 - 12 each). Both dealers tried to get the coins graded, but no cigar. (I believe it was NGC) Coins were minted, not cast. But, they were minted with dies copied from an original coin. All coins were returned to the original very well known dealer, who refunded the money without any argument. Wonder what happened to those "coins" next. This thread may or may not explain it. I hope that the guys that returned these coins could post here, confirm the story and identify the originator. The coin was also posted on another forum in Russia, where it was also identified as a fake, however, a moderator of that forum, who is also a member here, erased the thread because he still had those coins on hand at the time. Thus, there will be no link to it. Maybe he can recollect that story.

 

On today’s market, I only trust myself. There are a few guys who can tell a coin from a “coin” when they see it, but at the same can be trusted. And the list is very short, and it gets shorter as the prices go up. The list is much shorter than what the majority of collectors believe it to be.

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thank you for showing, this one is genuine one - I can see from picture, and it is a different from suspected one :ninja:

The side point I was making is this - I paid $25 10 years ago and it was retail price. So wholesale would be even less, especially so for an ugly, deformed, green coin like the one in the original post (sorry, I am exaggerating a little here for better effect). I do not know when the story told by BKB took place, but seems like a while back. So did it make sense to make those fake 1804 EM heavy copper coins for profit? Would seem much more profitable to make a more rare veriety or lighter coins from some other periods. IMHO.

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The side point I was making is this - I paid $25 10 years ago and it was retail price. So wholesale would be even less, especially so for an ugly, deformed, green coin like the one in the original post (sorry, I am exaggerating a little here for better effect). I do not know when the story told by BKB took place, but seems like a while back. So did it make sense to make those fake 1804 EM heavy copper coins for profit? Would seem much more profitable to make a more rare veriety or lighter coins from some other periods. IMHO.

 

Far as I have been told, the story took place about 2 years ago. Moreover, if dies are made, it is much more profitable to counterfeit a common but popular coin - you will be able to sell more of them. As to the weight, copper is very cheap. :ninja::-) But, in reality, today's steel allows striking way more of them before the die deteriorates than in 1804, not to mention, you are not shooting for 50,000 strikes per die with these prices. I think it makes very good sense to make these for profit, especially 2 - 3 years ago, when everything sold.

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Far as I have been told, the story took place about 2 years ago. Moreover, if dies are made, it is much more profitable to counterfeit a common but popular coin - you will be able to sell more of them. As to the weight, copper is very cheap. :ninja::-) But, in reality, today's steel allows striking way more of them before the die deteriorates than in 1804, not to mention, you are not shooting for 50,000 strikes per die with these prices. I think it makes very good sense to make these for profit, especially 2 - 3 years ago, when everything sold.

 

Still do not get it. Making smaller coins (Peter I or something like that) would seem like a much better enterprise. Forget the cost of copper, but keep in mind the size and technological process behind it. Even 1802 2 kopeks would make more sense.

But like I said, IMHO.

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...

A very well known Russian dealer of Russian material in the US (big name) obtained a large number of these. It is not clear whether he knew that these were fake, but the number of identical coins (between 10 and 25) should have raised a suspicion in the very least… Then, he sold 20 of them to two dealers (about 10 - 12 each).

...

 

Please provide the name of the dealer who originally sold the coins. And since there were two more dealers involved please provide their names as well.

 

WCO

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Still do not get it. Making smaller coins (Peter I or something like that) would seem like a much better enterprise. Forget the cost of copper, but keep in mind the size and technological process behind it. Even 1802 2 kopeks would make more sense.

But like I said, IMHO.

couterfeiting most popular and most demand coinage

as sample - 2 kopeks 1802 were only minted in 1802, 1803 and 1804 on EM,

in spite 5 kopeks have large years to go from 1802 up to 1810 with many major varieties -

would counterfeiters try to make a couple 2 kopeks 1804 EM (R3) and have a diffuculties to sell it

or better a dozens and dozens of 5 kopeks 1804 EM piataks, speed up/compensate the job and profit and easy to sell such pieces presenting compatitive price on huge demands for last few years

I just recalled that fact that I forgot too but you reminded me about $25 coin that ten-fifteen years ago there was no such demand on russian coins and there were different collector prefferences on a widely available russian material at reasonable prices not like today days

Remember, as we went to preview the coins at Superior about ten year ago, the firm's rep was begging us to buy just something pls pls pls below even gold bullion price but just someting, i miss that time :ninja:

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Please provide the name of the dealer who originally sold the coins. And since there were two more dealers involved please provide their names as well.

 

WCO

 

Cannot do it. I was asked not to name names. Did you hear anything about this transaction? After all, it all took place in NY/NJ area. :ninja:

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Still do not get it. Making smaller coins (Peter I or something like that) would seem like a much better enterprise. Forget the cost of copper, but keep in mind the size and technological process behind it. Even 1802 2 kopeks would make more sense.

But like I said, IMHO.

 

I am sure that it is also done. Very important to pick a common but popular coin if you want to profit.

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couterfeiting most popular and most demand coinage

as sample - 2 kopeks 1802 were only minted in 1802, 1803 and 1804 on EM,

in spite 5 kopeks have large years to go from 1802 up to 1810 with many major varieties -

would counterfeiters try to make a couple 2 kopeks 1804 EM (R3) and have a diffuculties to sell it

or better a dozens and dozens of 5 kopeks 1804 EM piataks, ...

 

I mentioned 2 kopeks 1802, not 1803 or 1804.

 

I am sure that it is also done. Very important to pick a common but popular coin if you want to profit.

 

1802 EM 2 kopeks is a common coin with dozens of die verieties - just check the Russian forum for kazbek's research. What's an extra die veriety when there are that many?

And I find it more popular and desired than the 5 kopek coins.

But now we are just "shooting the breeze"

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Cannot do it. I was asked not to name names. Did you hear anything about this transaction? After all, it all took place in NY/NJ area. :ninja:

 

No, I do not know anything about this story it is why I am asking names. You told everyone that some “major” dealer(s) in NY/NJ were selling fakes in quantities. You said “A”, now say “B”. Otherwise, you are protecting dishonest dealers. You owe it to community now to disclose names of people involved. Otherwise, I do not understand why you even disclosed the story. You left people wondering about who is that “dealer in NY/NJ”, their guesses may take them in wrong direction.

 

WCO

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No, I do not know anything about this story it is why I am asking names. You told everyone that some “major” dealer(s) in NY/NJ were selling fakes in quantities. You said “A”, now say “B”. Otherwise, you are protecting dishonest dealers. You owe it to community now to disclose names of people involved. Otherwise, I do not understand why you even disclosed the story. You left people wondering about who is that “dealer in NY/NJ”, their guesses may take them in wrong direction.

 

WCO

 

I beg to differ. I do not owe anything to anyone. It is interesting, however, that you speak on behalf of the community. I do not believe that disclosing names will help a lot of guys here, but will certainly cause a lot of grief to a few minor dealers that did not do anything wrong. As to the "major" dealer, it is not you, so what do you care?

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No, I do not know anything about this story it is why I am asking names. You told everyone that some “major” dealer(s) in NY/NJ were selling fakes in quantities. You said “A”, now say “B”. Otherwise, you are protecting dishonest dealers. You owe it to community now to disclose names of people involved. Otherwise, I do not understand why you even disclosed the story. You left people wondering about who is that “dealer in NY/NJ”, their guesses may take them in wrong direction.

 

WCO

 

I'll have to agree. The accusation is pretty serious and requires clarification. There are way too many "major" dealers in NY/NJ area who can be suspected by the audience.

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I beg to differ. I do not owe anything to anyone. It is interesting, however, that you speak on behalf of the community. I do not believe that disclosing names will help a lot of guys here, but will certainly cause a lot of grief to a few minor dealers that did not do anything wrong. As to the "major" dealer, it is not you, so what do you care?

 

By not providing names you are ruining reputation of other dealers in NY/NJ area. I do not think it is appropriate. I do not speak on behalf of community (of course), I said you owe it to community to disclose names. I do not care much though if you do not disclose anything farther; just think it would be appropriate.

 

I was entertained a lot by discussion of 1804 5 Kopecks in question on this forum and especially on Russian forum coins.su. :ninja:

 

Best regards,

 

WCO

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call me, I'll explain.

 

BKB, I don't know what your purpose was in telling the story other than reporting an interesting occurrence. And it was interesting. ;)

 

Unfortunately, what this story has accomplished is to put a cloud on the reputation of ALL the NY and NJ dealers. I am not a dealer and am barely a collector. My knowledge is very limited but I know that many members of our community are very reputable, knowledgeable, and trustworthy dealers, from whom, until now, I would not have hesitated to purchase coins, relying on their expertise while accumulating my own knowledge and experience. :ninja:

 

I can understand your reluctance to name names but is that really fair?

I am afraid we can't all call you for an explanation, so what do you suggest we do? ;)

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BKB, I don't know what your purpose was in telling the story other than reporting an interesting occurrence. And it was interesting. ;)

 

Unfortunately, what this story has accomplished is to put a cloud on the reputation of ALL the NY and NJ dealers. I am not a dealer and am barely a collector. My knowledge is very limited but I know that many members of our community are very reputable, knowledgeable, and trustworthy dealers, from whom, until now, I would not have hesitated to purchase coins, relying on their expertise while accumulating my own knowledge and experience. :ninja:

 

I can understand your reluctance to name names but is that really fair?

I am afraid we can't all call you for an explanation, so what do you suggest we do? ;)

 

If you have become more careful and less trustworthy as a result of reading this story, I have done more good than the last 10,000 posts identifying ebay fakes for you guys. If you hesitate and think twice, notwithstanding who the seller is, you have just become wiser and, as a result, richer.

 

It would be unfair to name names, because it is very possible that no party to the transaction actually knew that the coins were fake when they sold them. Think of the damage the name naming would do to these guys. The fact that they unknowingly had a group of fakes in their possession does not make them fake pusher,now, does it? When Alex called me and I explained the situation to him (without identifying the names), he agreed that the names should remain confidential, unless a party to the transaction comes in and confirms the story.

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