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1764 5 copper kopek used to strike SEE WHAT


one-kuna

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i am surpized that there was no respond from above :ninja:

i am waiting for respond ;)

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it is precisely clear:...absence of documentation and comprehensive descriptions from museum collections allow countefeiters to make pretty much substitutes (fakes) over cheap russian copper coins, and because of high interest to russian numismatics - speculate on it and moreover get the profit... :ninja:

 

Overstruck or not and regardless over what coin (Russian or not) they worth about the same, I gave the price range above in this thread. Stop speculating on the subject you do not know or understand.

 

WCO

 

P.S. Please provide your definitions of "private strike" and "mint patterns". We'll see if it may be compared.

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It just happened that some of them were struck over "Russian copper".

WCO

Last issue of Journal of RNS considers counterfeiting on its first few pages, and I am sure you are familiar with this general article and followings :ninja:

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Last issue of Journal of RNS considers counterfeiting on its first few pages, and I am sure you are familiar with this general article and followings :ninja:

 

Again, you are "sure" about something you do not know. I am not a member of RNS and do not receive or read their journal. I am not familiar with the article you mentioned. Were there in that "last issue of Journal of RNS" shown or discussed any French patterns struck over Russian (or some other) coins? If not, than how is it relevant to our discussion?

 

WCO

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I asked you a question in #72 - how simple is to answer :ninja:

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I asked you a question in #72 - how simple is to answer :ninja:

 

Question #72.

 

are you considering private strike and mint patterns - same ;)

 

 

Answering question #72 for the third time. "Private strike" is NOT the same as "mint patterns". "Private strike" is NOT different as "mint patterns". They are from different worlds. They are neither synonyms nor antonyms. Can "private strike" coins be at the same time "mint patterns"? Yes, they can.

 

Strike of numismatic items may be done on official government mint or outside of the mint in private workshops, private factories or even on foreign mints. I think, by saying "private strike" you are referring to items struck outside of the official mint territory. However, if such items are struck on official mint order they are official numismatic items, in our case - coins. Remember some kopecks struck on Rozenkrants factory (Петербургский завод Розенкранца). They were struck on private factory and are what you are saying "private strike". Do you think they are not coins? What if Rozenkrants factory was given an order to strike series of patterns? Would they be "mint patterns"? Absolutely, even though they would not be struck at St. Petersburg mint. Same was in France in 1848. Since there was official mint order (Concours Monétaire) all patterns struck for that competition are official mint patterns and it does not matter where they were struck at the mint or outside of the mint. That is why they are in all catalogues, they are official coins. Some of the 1848 French patterns could be "privately struck" official "mint patterns".

 

WCO

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Strike of numismatic items may be done on official government mint or outside of the mint in private workshops, private factories or even on foreign mints.

The British had many coins produced for their empire struck at the private mint in Birmingham, known as the Heaton mint.

 

The Heaton mint even struck coins for some of the independent Latin American republics, such as the Paraguayan copper 4 centesimos of 1870.

 

I have heard that the patterns for the Honduran 1862 provisional copper 1, 2, 4 and 8 pesos were also made in the privately owned Heaton mint located in Birmingham England. They certainly are of much more refined style than the circulation issues made in Tegucigalpa.

 

Nicholas II coins were also struck at Brussels and Paris, which were not located in Russia the last time I checked.

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grivna1726, thank you for additional information. Private workshops in France produced patterns for French mint for decades, centuries, and all those coins are official "mint patterns". I mentioned Rozenkrants factory as example that may be understood by Russian collector. Speaking of Birmingham mint they among hundreds or may be thousands of "privately struck" world patterns also made several kinds of 1804 Boulton Pattern Rubles and Poltinas.

 

WCO

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The British had many coins produced for their empire struck at the private mint in Birmingham, known as the Heaton mint.

 

The Heaton mint even struck coins for some of the independent Latin American republics, such as the Paraguayan copper 4 centesimos of 1870.

 

I have heard that the patterns for the Honduran 1862 provisional copper 1, 2, 4 and 8 pesos were also made in the privately owned Heaton mint located in Birmingham England. They certainly are of much more refined style than the circulation issues made in Tegucigalpa.

 

Nicholas II coins were also struck at Brussels and Paris, which were not located in Russia the last time I checked.

 

The Heaton Mint also struck well known Romanian coins in XIX century.

In addition, some of the Soviet 1924 silver poltinas (TP) where struck in London (I do not think it was a private mint, though).

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Let's take the example of the 1804 US dollar. Produced in the US mint, overstruck on a 1857 Swiss thaler. Clearly impossible but it was done by a mint employee.

 

Not necessary a private strike or mint pattern in an official mint - just someone in the mint messing around to make some money.

 

I think it can be possible for such coin to exist, it's just that we have too little information at the moment.

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it's just that we have too little information at the moment.

 

that is right, and same people, note same folks, nobody else in the whole world,

using this point to introduce a fantasy fake slabbed by grading service :ninja:

 

i was curios, if same "mint pattern" piece to send to NGC, then PCGS, and finally to ANA -

would be all above grading companies graded them as it genuine ?? ;)

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""...I do not believe in overstruck patterns or presentation pieces... Kind of stupid to make sure that your presentation piece would be uglier than it could have been if struck on a clean polished planchette... At least, heat up the coin and erase the old design if you must use it as a planchette..." ;)

 

On upcoming Heritage world coin auction found several Paraguay patterns all of them are minted over different world coins (over coins of Peru, Argentina, Chile, etc.):

http://coins.ha.com/common/search_results....401+694&Ns=

 

Undercoins are completely visible on most of those coins. People that struck those coins for Paraguay did not know that 100+ years later one-kuna would not believe in existence of patterns struck over foreign coins just because it is "...stupid to make sure that your presentation piece would be uglier than it could have been if struck on a clean polished planchette". :ninja:

 

WCO

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pls, I would like to learn more about german thaler over 5 kop 1764,

if you are interesting to discuss foreign coins being overstruk somewhere -

this is wrong thread for you WCO, world coins would be better choice for you and you readers,

over here is about russian coins;

world coins link is located at the left upper corner of each page :ninja:

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pls, I would like to learn more about german thaler over 5 kop 1764,

if you are interesting to discuss foreign coins being overstruk somewhere -

this is wrong thread for you WCO, world coins would be better choice for you and you readers,

over here is about russian coins;

world coins link is located at the left upper corner of each page ;)

The Dresden museum is understaffed and they are moving house. I still did not reach some competent people. I did however discuss the subject in a German language forum as well as with a German dealer. From what I think meanwhile, die cutters had to try their die before offering their job to the mint. They may not have had silver flans readily available or may have avoided to spoil one. On the other hand they may have procured some of the large Russian copper coins for that purpose. As it is known that German mint personel assisted Russian mints at the time, it is likely that they brought some coins to Germany (as I would have done :ninja: ). Sigi

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This is definitely fake coins pictured. Newly cut dies applied on an exteremely worn (F) Russian coin.

 

Btw, recent issues of Russian Antikvariat magazine run a series of very interesting articles on fakes. 2 Russian collectors (in Roman and Greek coinage) investigated different methods of fake production. Mainly their investigations are based on Numismatic Forgery book by Larson, but the most interesting part is that they placed pictures of step-by-step production from cutting the 'right' die to applying a 'genuine' toning. If anybody has access to this magazine - that is a must-read illustrative material.

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This is definitely fake coins pictured. Newly cut dies applied on an exteremely worn (F) Russian coin.

 

Btw, recent issues of Russian Antikvariat magazine run a series of very interesting articles on fakes. 2 Russian collectors (in Roman and Greek coinage) investigated different methods of fake production. Mainly their investigations are based on Numismatic Forgery book by Larson, but the most interesting part is that they placed pictures of step-by-step production from cutting the 'right' die to applying a 'genuine' toning. If anybody has access to this magazine - that is a must-read illustrative material.

thank you so much 4 data, what issues of "Russian Antikvariat magazine" should be looked :ninja:

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this forum asked the opinon of world coin numismatists - and it was fully confirmed few posts earlier

that french mint patterns on russian coppers could not have been made at french mint :ninja:

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this forum asked the opinon of world coin numismatists - and it was fully confirmed few posts earlier

that french mint patterns on russian coppers could not have been made at french mint :ninja:

 

This forum did not ask anyone but still it is obvious that:

 

- Some Russian copper kopecks made in 1899 - 1901 were not made at Russian mint (struck on Rozenkrantz private factory)

- Some Russian 1916 10 and 15 kopecks were not made at Russian mint (Struck at Osaka mint, Japan)

- Some Russian rubles and 50 kopecks of Nicholas II era were not made at Russian mint (Made at Paris and Brussels mints)

- Some Russian Patterns of 1804 were not made at Russian mint (struck on private mint in Birmingham)

...

So what's the point? ;)

 

FYI: "World coin numismatists" confirmed that French patterns over foreign coins are good and authentic.

 

WCO

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I strongly believe that so-called French pattern is also a fake no matter NGC certification and whatever circumstantional evidence and vague logical conclusions. The detailed photographed process of production of such 'coins' is pictured in the #73 (March 2010) of Russian Antikvariat magazine; though the authors of that article experiment with Roman coinage, the same steps are applied to medieval and later times coins.

 

PS I consider Ponterio terms of not accepting certified fake coins to be a shame in numismatic trade since a fake coin is a forgery with sole intention to make money out of clueless customer, in does not completely matter if it is slabbed or comes with a paper. If it turns out to be a fake all other terms do not apply since a fake is not a coin, but a piece of metal.

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I strongly believe that so-called French pattern is also a fake no matter NGC certification and whatever circumstantional evidence and vague logical conclusions. The detailed photographed process of production of such 'coins' is pictured in the #73 (March 2010) of Russian Antikvariat magazine; though the authors of that article experiment with Roman coinage, the same steps are applied to medieval and later times coins.

 

PS I consider Ponterio terms of not accepting certified fake coins to be a shame in numismatic trade since a fake coin is a forgery with sole intention to make money out of clueless customer, in does not completely matter if it is slabbed or comes with a paper. If it turns out to be a fake all other terms do not apply since a fake is not a coin, but a piece of metal.

 

 

 

Thank you for your opinion, not a surprise for me. The article you mentioned in Russian Antiques Magazine, what relevance it has to 1848 French patterns? Do they mention those specific coins? If not than what is your point in mentioning a general article on how counterfeiters make fake coins? It is not a general discussion.

 

If you think that "Ponterio terms of not accepting certified fake coins to be a shame in numismatic trade" than you have not seen anything yet.

 

Let's take a look at Baldwin's conditions of sale found in their catalogues. Read paragraph 7 of Conditions of Sale.

 

p. 7a "Lots are sold as shown with all faults, imperfections and errors of description and lack of authenticity".

p. 7c "The auctioneer does not accept the opinions of commercial third party grading services. Refusal of such a service to grade a coin, or a difference of opinion on the grade of a coin, is not acceptable grounds for the return of a lot. Statements and opinions formed by third party grading services based on their own independent research do not affect the auctioneers rights and conditions".

 

They do not even promise that any item in their sale is authentic and especially they do not promise accuracy, grade, quality, errors... So they can list lot 1955 and lot 2004 as Very Fine or about when in fact both rarities are corroded "no grade" items. And if later any of those turn out to be fakes – you own them no matter what. And you do not have even a "back up" of a grading service.

 

Similar as Ponterio Terms of sale have Heritage, Goldberg Auctions ... you name it. Get any Goldberg Auctions catalogue, read "Disclaimers and Warranties", paragraph e, text in large letters: "Coins listed in this catalogue graded by PCGS, NGC, ICG, SEGS, ACCUGRADE, PCI, NTC, or ANACS cachet may not be returned for any reason whatsoever". All you can do is not to participate in auctions if you disagree with terms of sale of specific auction company. But where you will be buying coins for your collection than?

 

I myself think that a no return of NGC/PCGS/ANACS slabbed coins policy is a reasonable demand that trusted and reputable companies (auction houses) use to defend their business from people like one-kuna who finds fakes in almost every coin in a catalogue.

 

WCO

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The article you mentioned in Russian Antiques Magazine, what relevance it has to 1848 French patterns?

 

It shows the principles, methods and technics of manufacturing these 'coins' and yes, generally speaking, all other fakes. Specifically I mentioned it as an illustration of using authentic 'undercoin' to create an unknown artifact.

 

 

"trusted and reputable companies (auction houses)": they are not trusted and reputable anymore, for me at least, when a company is including such wording in their terms of service. Though I would not base any purchase on seller's assertion and assurance that this particular coin is good, still it will be influencing my buying decision if the seller is reliable and trustworthy or at least trying to be.

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Thank you for your opinion, not a surprise for me. The article you mentioned in Russian Antiques Magazine, what relevance it has to 1848 French patterns? Do they mention those specific coins? If not than what is your point in mentioning a general article on how counterfeiters make fake coins? It is not a general discussion.

 

...

 

WCO

 

Wow, this is very interesting. In your post #88 (former #101) you seem to be talking about Paraguay "coins" struck over coins of America. How does that relate to this discussion of European "coins" struck over Russian coins? Was it a "general discussion" before post 88?

 

I stand by my every word that you quoted in your post #88, quoting kuna. No one in a right mind will mint a series of patterns on Russian or any other coins. I just do not believe in it. If I see something like that, it is an immediate suspect. By the way, I had one of these in my hands and looked at it, so I am not talking about photos here. A person that has equipment that allows die creation, would have the equipment to erase the design of the undercoin prior to striking. That person would also have the equipment to produce a new planchette. Copper is not expensive. So, why in the world would anyone want to produce an ugly pattern? Oh, I know -- to sell it to a new collector to make a buck. Do you have any other plausible explanation except that there were no planchettes available and it was easier to use coins? I would think that it is much harder to produce dies than to make planchettes... But, it is just me.

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