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1764 5 copper kopek used to strike SEE WHAT


one-kuna

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I think that it has become clear that none of us know much about French or German coinage, and these coins have very little to do with Russian numismatics.

 

If we want to learn more, we should link this topic to a Forum where people who collect French and German coins hang out. Would the World Coins area of this forum be such a place?

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(2) I'm not sure where you got the idea about "three hundred bucks" - these coins are not for sale

your fellow WCO sold one, also he developed and supported a myth of genuine french coins struck on circulated copper coins of Alexander I :ninja:

you and him had arguments on staraya-moneta asking russian collectors opinion if these coins known to them or not, if so, the coins can be sold to russians as well ;)

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I think that it has become clear that none of us know much about French or German coinage, and these coins have very little to do with Russian numismatics.

 

If we want to learn more, we should link this topic to a Forum where people who collect French and German coins hang out. Would the World Coins area of this forum be such a place?

can be, but I heard there is german forum exists probably French too where experts can confirm its fakeness :ninja:

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I'm 100% sure that the French 1848 patterns listed above struck on (in these cases) Russian 2 kopeks are genuine

 

""...I do not believe in overstruck patterns or presentation pieces... Kind of stupid to make sure that your presentation piece would be uglier than it could have been if struck on a clean polished planchette... At least, heat up the coin and erase the old design if you must use it as a planchette..." :ninja:

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I think that it has become clear that none of us know much about French or German coinage, and these coins have very little to do with Russian numismatics.

 

If we want to learn more, we should link this topic to a Forum where people who collect French and German coins hang out. Would the World Coins area of this forum be such a place?

Sounds like a good observation and a reasonable suggestion to me...

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""...I do not believe in overstruck patterns or presentation pieces... Kind of stupid to make sure that your presentation piece would be uglier than it could have been if struck on a clean polished planchette... At least, heat up the coin and erase the old design if you must use it as a planchette..." :ninja:

The real thaler is depicted in KM. It shows the same die cracks as our object (below the "O" of COBURG and above the "MEI.." of MEININGEN). The real thaler is very rare and would fetch a very high price. Why on earth would someone counterfeit this strange copper thing instead of the silver thaler? ;)

At the end of the SAXE-MEININGEN entry, patterns are listed. The first one is this thaler struck in copper - no picture shown. There were no German copper coins of that size at the time. That means that there were no large copper planchets either. Rather than producing a copper planchet for maybe just a single or very few trial strikes it would be easier to grind an existing coin to shape.

At that time Western (including German) specialists worked at Russian mints, Western machinery was used. It does not seem very unlikely that also some of the coins found their way to a German mint. Maybe as objects of curiosity or study. Such a piatak lying around would be welcome for a trial strike.

Note - I am not promoting this coin. From the pictures, to me it looks good. As mentioned before I have sent an inquiry to THE competent Museum collection. If they deign to answer I'll post it here. Sigi

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Guys, this problem still exist in today's world.

 

Let's see an example here: http://minterrornews.com/news-5-13-03-fore...n_the_mint.html

 

1951 Roosevelt Dime struck on a 1951 Costa Rica 5 Centimos, double denomination, authenticated by ANACS. Roosevelt Dime off-metal strikes are rare due to the fact that the coin or planchet has to be smaller than the Dime blank. There are only a few Dime off-metals known. This piece was struck on a previously struck 1951 Costa Rica 5 Centimos. The Costa Rica coin has a weight of 15.43 grains and is composed of 75% copper and 25% nickel. These coins were only struck at the Philadelphia Mint in 1951 and 1952, although they are all dated 1951.

 

1972-S PROOF 25c struck on an already Japanese 10 Yen. A proof double denomination on a foreign struck coin, Only 1 known PCGS. The US has never officially minted any coins for Japan.
- This is obviously hard to explain other than someone messing around.

 

1982 Panama 1/2 Balboa Struck on 1971 Kennedy Half Dollar ANACS MS 63 This is a double denomination involving two different countries and 11 years between the two strikes.

# 1982 Panama 1/2 Balboa Struck on 1972 Kennedy Half Dollar ANACS MS 63 This is a double denomination involving two different countries and 10 years between the two strikes.

# 1982 Panama 1/2 Balboa Struck on 1976 Kennedy Half Dollar ANACS MS 63 This is a double denomination involving two different countries and 6 years between the two strikes.

 

And note this is a very small list of the some of the world's most bizarre "error" coins that's not supposed to happen.

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  • 2 weeks later...
there was no respond so far since march 24 - none ;)

The Münzkabinett Dresden has not replied yet to my email request of March 21. Their phone is unattended, no answering machine. Probably a desperately understaffed museum :ninja: . I have just asked a prominent Dresden collector (member in a German forum) to intervene there. Sigi

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Posted the same question on yet another forum, got a reply:

http://www.numismatique.com/forum/affichag...p?idSujet=10050

 

Relevant part: "Il n'est pas possible que les essais frappés par la Monnaie de Paris soient des réutilisations de pièces russes usagées, les essais devaient être parfaits puisque servant à choisir le nouveau graphisme.

On peut donc supposer que c'est un "essai privé" d'un graveur ayant utilisé une pièce de récupération pour tester son outil.

Les pièces neuves françaises en bronze de 30mm n'existaient pas, il était sans doute plus facile d'en prendre une existante que de fabriquer un flan nu pour un graveur."

 

quick translation: "It is not possible that an overstrike could have occurred at the Paris mint. Patterns would have been struck perfectly since they were used to chose the new design. We can therefore suppose that this is a "private trial" of the engraver, who used a convenient coin to test his dies. There were no french bronze coins of 30mm diameter at that time, it would of course have been much easier to use an existing foreign coin, rather than making a new flan."

 

This pretty much corresponds with what WCO had written on the Staraya Moneta forum.

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Strange that this topic is up again. I thought the issue is quite clear. Some of 1848 copper 10 Centimes essai coins were struck over some world coins of similar diameter and thickness. These coins are known, genuine and worth anywhere between $200 and $500 depending from how nice they are. NGC and PCGS certified fair amount of such pieces (the one on the pictures on page 1 of this thread is also authenticated and graded by NGC). Even now Northeast Numismatics on their web site have several NGC graded 1848 10 Centime pieces and one of them (MAZ-1354) is definetely struck over some foreign coin (which I unable to identify).

 

----------------

 

Some people think 1848 event (Concours Monétaire) was the largest such a competition in history. See here: http://hkmal.blogspot.com/2010_02_01_archive.html

Author writes several times on that page: “…Design competition of 1848. Probably the largest competition in history.” But if someone is aware about some bigger event where larger amount of coin designers was involved please tell the world.

I found photo of some document about competition of 1848 (on French, would be nice if someone can translate it):

Page 1. http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...l%3Den%26sa%3DN

Page 2. http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...l%3Den%26sa%3DN

 

On all 3 French forums where alexbq2 asked questions no one doubted authenticity of such coins and one of the users said: “ … interesting and can thus be collected by the two countries <collectors> to show different <under> coins for various modules of 10 centimes…” (translated from French).

 

WCO

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Thanks for the information. This passage from the HKMAL's blog is interesting:

 

"Some were struck in brass, and many were struck over earlier coins and foreign coins. The original dies must have been made of poor quality material, for many of them broke, soon after striking just a few essais. This resulted in new dies been engraved, creating more varieties. The quality of the newly engraved dies was usually not as good as the original ones."

 

This does answer a lot of questions.

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Thanks for the information. This passage from the HKMAL's blog is interesting:

 

"Some were struck in brass, and many were struck over earlier coins and foreign coins. The original dies must have been made of poor quality material, for many of them broke, soon after striking just a few essais. This resulted in new dies been engraved, creating more varieties. The quality of the newly engraved dies was usually not as good as the original ones."

 

This does answer a lot of questions.

 

 

Will this finalize the discussion ? I hope so but , at the same time, I do not think so. Some stubborn members here and on other forums will still be trying to make their cases. Very sad, as their energy could have been used for something more productive.

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Those French coins are just the mint patterns
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Strange that this topic is up again. I thought the issue is quite clear.

 

look who's pass was that;

yes, it is clear by now if you consider private strike and mint patterns - same :ninja:

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""...I do not believe in overstruck patterns or presentation pieces..."

 

... This passage from the HKMAL's blog is interesting:

" many were struck over earlier coins and foreign coins." ...

 

Example of numismatic disbelief. :ninja:

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… it is clear by now if you consider private strike and mint patterns - same :ninja:

 

Where do you think this competition took place? By what order? Do you think that all participants took “homework” and struck patterns somewhere in their “private” homes? Is it true that mint patterns can not be made by private engravers? Do you think these coins are in world and French coin catalogues by mistake?

 

WCO

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are you considering private strike and mint patterns - same :ninja:

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From what I understood in the above document, the competition was completely open. Anyone could participate by signing up at the appropriate place. The first place prize for the 10 centime design was 10000 francs (seems like a very large sum). The competition was judged by a jury, and took place at the mint where patterns would be struck and evaluated by the jury. It is my understanding that the participants would develop and test their dies at their own workshops, their final designs would be tested by the jury at the mint - the artists could participate at the tryouts.

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are you considering private strike and mint patterns - same :ninja:

 

 

You tell me what is your definition of "private strike" and what is your definition of "mint patterns". Then it will be obvious if this is the same, different or neither same nor different (incomparable). Something tells me that those two are not the same, nor different. Like oranges and cosmos.

 

WCO

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Do you think these coins are in world and French coin catalogues by mistake?

WCO

 

disccusion is about russian copper and they ARE NOT in above references :ninja:

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are you considering private strike and mint patterns - same :ninja:

i am surpized that there was no respond from above ;)

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Strange that this topic is up again. I thought the issue is quite clear. WCO

 

it is precisely clear:...absence of documentation and comprehensive descriptions from museum collections allow countefeiters to make pretty much substitutes (fakes) over cheap russian copper coins, and because of high interest to russian numismatics - speculate on it and moreover get the profit... :ninja:

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