GoldTooth Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 A bit of help please? Ok... I have just been asked by my mother to go through a coin and currency collection complied by my grandfather and great-grandfather. There are hordes, among them a number of gold pieces. I hope to address and post many pictures and questions here about the finds. First, of course, it has to be, is my 1922 Peace dollar a proof matte or satin finish? I know the rarity and odds of the thing. However, I was lucky in finding three 1922's in the collection, and the one in question undoubtedly has a different sheen, an almost soft metal shine to it w/o rods to the shimmer (there is no shimmer/more of a glow). It is in at least fine condition (negligible wear), the strike appears superb, the letters and details of the hair are more defined, and while the others are in excellent condition the detail of this one appears more pronounced, even the edges are sharper and more squared. Of course, I had to ask my mother if there appeared to be a difference in the coins (without her knowledge of what I was seeking) and she picked up on the qualities of the metal immediately. This gave me much reassurance. Plus, well, the matte finish (which is what it appears to be--low relief) seems the pure definition of matte (i.e.-a flat sheen). I know the odds are low, and I know the best thing to do is to send it off. Which I am reluctant to do yet. Tomorrow, I will post pictures of the coin alone as well as side by side with the other two for comparison. P.S. - My prize for my research - ! a very fine condition 1908 Gold Indian Quarter Eagle ! - I am Excited! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhawk Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 Sounds like fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRnholio Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 the one in question undoubtedly has a different sheen, an almost soft metal shine to it w/o rods to the shimmer (there is no shimmer/more of a glow). It is in at least fine condition (negligible wear) Plus, well, the matte finish (which is what it appears to be--low relief) seems the pure definition of matte (i.e.-a flat sheen). Something doesn't quite add up there. If it's a matte finish, it would be a proof, which will have no wear, or perhaps a high AU grade. If it is shiney and grades as Fine, you're most definitely looking at a cleaned or polished coin. If you are unfamiliar with grading terms, I am sure someone here can reply with some websites with good pics to help explain. Good luck with your research! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiho Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 Looking forward to seeing the photos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedeadpoint Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 I believe the 1922 proof has a high relief like the 1921 circ.strike. Check out the heritage auction archive here: http://coins.ha.com/common/auction/pricesr...wse&stage=1 Compare yours to theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just carl Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 I've heard stories like this many times on forums. I always make the same suggestion. Although your saying it's your Mother, I still say only look through that collection in her or another family members presence. I know people say things like no problem, nothing to worry about, everything is OK. Still this type of situation many times ends up in a massive family problem. Don't know if you have brothers, sisters, nephews, etc. but eventually those are the types that say you pocketed a lot of STUFF. Then the stories grow and grow and grow. If you suddenly buy a new car, new clothing or go out to an expensive restaurant, everyone will know where the money came from or so they will say. Hopefully not in your case, but just a word of caution. I've seen some really nasty outcomes of situations like yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Charlie Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 I agree with carl, make sure your family is aware of the situation. The 1922 you found most likely is cleaned and whizzed up. From what I've seen of cleaned coins they almost always have an unnatural shine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldTooth Posted February 19, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 I imagine that all of the above are the case. But, here are some pictures. Note that these have been kept in a 'coin-bin' of sorts--which included some proof gold eagles, quarter eagles, etc... It is a bit dirty. Really, the thing looks like it is made of a completely different metal. The edges are perfect, more defined, and with less of a rounded rim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Charlie Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 It has less wear on it, maybe what you see is some original mint luster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRnholio Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 It has less wear on it, maybe what you see is some original mint luster. Seconded. It looks to be in AU or so, compared to the other two which look more like VF and F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 I believe the 1922 proof has a high relief like the 1921 circ.strike. Check out the heritage auction archive here: http://coins.ha.com/common/auction/pricesr...wse&stage=1 Compare yours to theirs. According to the VAM book, only 5 of the 1922 coins in high relief and matte proof were struck; but "several proof satin finish dollars of the lower relief design were struck", quoting Breen et al. So there exist both types, but in miniscule numbers. I doubt that the coin in question is anything but an uncirculated (or AU) 1922 business strike (with some environmental damage, as it seems). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldTooth Posted February 19, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 I expected no's, for sure, but remain unconvinced thus far. I have seen a number of very good examples of uncirculateds, and I have to respond by saying this looks like a different type of silver altogether. It is really in the sheen. It does not "shine" like an uncirculated at all. Some of the facets of the cut are markedly different as well, the coin is thicker and more cleanly cut along the edges. Will an uncirculated regular have that "sand-blasted" and porous shine? Though uncertain, I feel my interest in coins allows me to say that a reg. uncirc. piece of silver "business strike" does not look like this. This is markedly different in appearance. I wish that the photo could give better example of the qualities. It really has, what I'd like to say (and only discriptively) is, a brushed aluminum like sheen. If it is F or VF and a regular - should it be showing the shine of a cartwheels, pinwheels, or light rods? It does not. Thanks. And any comments on the details of the hair, or of the edges would be of interest. I am figuring I will probably need to take it to someone, but I am interested in talking about it. More coins to come this weekend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedeadpoint Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 Anyone found die varieties of the proofs yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 I'm at work so I can't check my references for possible diagnostics for the proof strikes. I remember when these were first discovered and reported in the press years ago. There have also been one or two sold that may or may not have actually been proofs. Breen did note that none of the recognized proofs exhibited "cartwheel" luster, i.e. there were no visible die flow lines that create that cartwheel effect when you rotate the coin in the light. If your's really does show the cartwheels or light rods that you describe, then it is likely not a proof strike. If it were a high relief 1922, then it would almost definitely be a proof strike and it will exhibit the diagnostic points of a high relief die (concave as opposed to flat fields being a primary diagnostic). High relief non-proofs were reportedly melted although at least one is reported extant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldTooth Posted February 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 Breen did note that none of the recognized proofs exhibited "cartwheel" luster, i.e. there were no visible die flow lines that create that cartwheel effect when you rotate the coin in the light. If your's really does show the cartwheels or light rods that you describe, then it is likely not a proof strike. It's definitely not a high relief. Comments on this post continued below... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldTooth Posted February 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 I knew I wrote that in a strange way. I does not show "cartwheel" or "light-rods" at all. It looks more porous and "sandblasted" for sure. Note in the photo how it almost glows from absorbing the light. It's quite magnificent alongside other (any other) pieces of silver. It is of a sort of brushed aluminum luminosity. Thanks a million guys. Doing this stuff is very fun, even if it turns out to not be one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 As noted earlier, it is not a 1922 high relief. There would be eights rays between the eagle's tail and the rock if it were. The olive branch is different on the 1922 experimental medium relief than on the 1922 low relief. It is definitely a low relief 1922. 1922 low relief proof, both types: The olive branch does not touch the talon, the CA in America nearly touch. Circulation strike, the branch touches the talon and the CA are clearly separate. Yours is definitely a circulation strike. For those interested in the Burdette Renaissance of American Coinage, the diagnostics are clearly illustrated in his fine book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldTooth Posted February 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 According to the VAM book, only 5 of the 1922 coins in high relief and matte proof were struck; but "several proof satin finish dollars of the lower relief design were struck", quoting Breen et al. So there exist both types, but in miniscule numbers. I doubt that the coin in question is anything but an uncirculated (or AU) 1922 business strike (with some environmental damage, as it seems). A bit slow on doing this, but yes! - I'd like to say that this is the type of luster the thing has. It is very similar to the 3 1921 matte(s) displayed here. They absorb light and look almost porous, grainy. I'd like to say these are exactly it. Darn the ability of pictures to portray the thing. Trying not to get my hopes up though. But it is so markedly different. I have decided it is either an effort at a fake or the real thing. I don't think (am more or less positive) this sort of appearance comes from ware. Look at the definition of the lines on the front, on the eagle's head, on the lettering and the rim. Look at how it glows. The odds with this one are better than winning the lottery, no? Good odds. I wish I could show y'all the thing. It is a sight. Darn, I promised myself I wouldn't get my hopes up. Looking forward to more commentary. Wish I had the collection with me right now, I'd show more pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccg Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 Bill pretty much got the conclusive research on this. I should note that the '22 peace dollar often exhibits a type of milky lustre that different from the kind of brilliant lustre that you might encounter on a '64 half, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 I have decided it is either an effort at a fake or the real thing. Have you weighed the coin yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Charlie Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 Experience has taught me that rare coins rarely come to you by chance. I think uncirculated Morgans have grainy luster, my guess is that you haven't seen much silver yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldTooth Posted February 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 No, I haven't weighed it. Perhaps it is an uncirculated. Yeah, that was pretty much definitive. Good thing to know too. I'm interested in that book. And I have seen quite a bit of silver, just nothing like this. I will post some more this coming week. I have some questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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