37.5 Rubles

[Prekol]

What is the chance this is a real coin?

http://cgi.ebay.de/Muenzen-Coins-Russland-...=item414c115e1b

 

I don't read German so can't understand alot of it, but people have bid 343 Euro = 496 Dollars on this already. Why would somebody even consider bidding on this.

 

[grivna1726]

What is the chance this is a real coin?

 

It's a base metal restrike which has been gold-plated. Value? Maybe $5.

 

 

http://cgi.ebay.de/Muenzen-Coins-Russland-...=item414c115e1b

 

I don't read German so can't understand alot of it, but people have bid 343 Euro = 496 Dollars on this already. Why would somebody even consider bidding on this.

 

 

Maybe they think they're "stealing" it at such a price (getting "robbed" might be a better description). I'm not sure what a genuine original example would bring these days, but I'd guess somewhere between $75,000 and $100,000.

[one-kuna]

What is the chance this is a real coin?

http://cgi.ebay.de/Muenzen-Coins-Russland-...=item414c115e1b

 

I don't read German so can't understand alot of it, but people have bid 343 Euro = 496 Dollars on this already. Why would somebody even consider bidding on this.

 

 

to discuss this listing need to be considered the follwing that

 

these resrikes are about 20 grams, they are availble in nickel, light gold plated and heavy color gold plated

 

technically, the seller indicated the proper weight of original coin which 32 grams,

 

in a real life - who knows, is this a true or not

 

because this coin has some traces of wear it is hard to say from a picture what this coin is

 

easy and fast opinion of course is that it is a modern restrike

 

[bobh]

What is the chance this is a real coin?

http://cgi.ebay.de/Muenzen-Coins-Russland-...=item414c115e1b

 

I don't read German so can't understand alot of it, but people have bid 343 Euro = 496 Dollars on this already. Why would somebody even consider bidding on this.

 

The short answer:

 

It is a gold-colored or gold-plated restrike. If you look at the reverse, you'll see that the year "1902 г." is followed by a "р" (Cyrillic "R") meaning that this is a restrike. The original has no "р" following the date.

 

There are other, more clever fakes out there that also have no "р" following the date. Anyone who bids more than $5 on this coin can blame nobody but him/her self.

[one-kuna]

The short answer:

 

It is a gold-colored or gold-plated restrike. If you look at the reverse, you'll see that the year "1902 г." is followed by a "р" (Cyrillic "R") meaning that this is a restrike. The original has no "р" following the date.

 

There are other, more clever fakes out there that also have no "р" following the date. Anyone who bids more than $5 on this coin can blame nobody but him/her self.

 

 

you are right - there is a litlle "p" - so a seller is not honest of its weight - it is not 32 grams as an original but 20 grams as a restirke, plus seller made some wear on coin to look being in little circulation;

in russia now very popular to sell similar pieces from Poland being capsulated by EMS or so, and sellers say that weight is 20 grams - at least the knowledgeable person will not buy it because of weight and so on...

[grivna1726]

to discuss this listing need to be considered the follwing that

 

these resrikes are about 20 grams, they are availble in nickel, light gold plated and heavy color gold plated

 

technically, the seller indicated the proper weight of original coin which 32 grams,

 

in a real life - who knows, is this a true or not

 

because this coin has some traces of wear it is hard to say from a picture what this coin is

 

easy and fast opinion of course is that it is a modern restrike

 

It is not at all difficult to say what it is.

 

It is a gold-plated restrike, as anyone can plainly see by comparing it with an original example.

 

On the left is the ebay coin, on the right, an original. There is a reason the "P" (really a Cyrillic "R") is present on the ebay coin, but absent on the original.

[one-kuna]

it looks like it was not easy for some,

because the diffrence/or proof was not explained in the first post immediately following the question of topic starter,

until bobh pointed out to letter p on such difference,

and one-kuna added some data most likely unknown to some,

after that there is no need to repeat what was already said by bobh,

the whole point of this subject is that some trying to sell it as 32 grams genuine one cheating on its weight

one-kuna

[grivna1726]

it looks like it was not easy for some,

because the diffrence/or proof was not explained in the first post immediately following the question of topic starter,

until bobh pointed out to letter p on such difference,

and one-kuna added some data most likely unknown to some,

after that there is no need to repeat what was already said by bobh,

the whole point of this subject is that some trying to sell it as 32 grams genuine one cheating on its weight

one-kuna

Please excuse me, because I'm somewhat surprised that a literature expert like yourself would require an explanation.

[one-kuna]

almost forgot,

there is one more piece available with word "copy" and known in gold color (gold-plated of course);

sometimes sold on ebay as a lot - 5 of them for 42 bucks;

this one (american) made from restrike one (russian)

one-kuna

[one-kuna]

bobh pointed out a letter P - no one else

 

thank you bobh !

 

one-kuna

[Maya]

Please excuse me, because I'm somewhat surprised that a literature expert like yourself would require an explanation.

 

 

[one-kuna]

[russia_coins]

The portrait is also wrong. This coin was minted in Paris, in 1902 and the original shows a 1901-1911 rouble type portrait with a star on the edge. This fake (restrike) has a 1895-1899 rouble type portrait. Maybe a year ago I saw this type of coin on eBay supposingly original for 50000 Euros as "Buy it Now".

 

Look at this beautiful original coin :

[RW Julian]

The portrait is also wrong. This coin was minted in Paris, in 1902 and the original shows a 1901-1911 rouble type portrait with a star on the edge. This fake (restrike) has a 1895-1899 rouble type portrait. Maybe a year ago I saw this type of coin on eBay supposingly original for 50000 Euros as "Buy it Now".

Look at this beautiful original coin :

The original was minted at St. Petersburg, not Paris.

 

RWJ

[one-kuna]

Value? Maybe $5.

 

about fifteen years ago I was trying to acquire all 3 differnt (nikel, about gold color and gold color)and after a long shopping I purchased them from armenian dealer I think from california by the following prices:

nikel - $4.50 (in brooklyn, NY it was at $5.00)

about gold - $10

gold color - $12

all 3 above pieces are now in a famous collection in NY city, not in mine possesion

 

about 17-18 years ago nikel pieces cost $1.50-$3.00 in US

 

if you ever see gold color pieces for $5.00 (without word "copy" but with letter "p" - let me know

[one-kuna]

The original was minted at St. Petersburg, not Paris.

 

RWJ

 

I was wondering

if the secret was puzzled out up to today

why these original pieces beared the star on its edge (mark of Paris mint) instead of the mint master initials??

Uzdenikov referenced that explanation was not found yet (in very late 1990th)

[RW Julian]

I was wondering

if the secret was puzzled out up to today

why these original pieces beared the star on its edge (mark of Paris mint) instead of the mint master initials??

Uzdenikov referenced that explanation was not found yet (in very late 1990th)

The official report of the St. Petersburg Mint for 1902 states that they were

made at St. Petersburg. Uzdenikov was misled by the star on the edge into

thinking that the pieces were made at Paris.

 

RWJ

[russia_coins]

If it was strucked in St-Petersburg, who is the mint master then ? Why putting a star on edge in stead of mint master initials ? Strange. Also, it is a 100 franks coin. Everything is pointing to a french mint. Maybe it was supposed to be minted there, but something didn't work out.

[one-kuna]

The official report of the St. Petersburg Mint for 1902 states that they were

made at St. Petersburg. Uzdenikov was misled by the star on the edge into

thinking that the pieces were made at Paris.

 

RWJ

 

I would say exactly (against mislead) but more closely what Uzdenikov book/article says:

"...why is a star on the edge were minted instead of mintmaster initials leaves a mystery for him...

that is what Uzdenikov said,

another words, Uzdenikov did know the place of minting, which is St.Petrsburg mint, but lifted the question why?

and my curiosity is same, why??

[bobh]

If it was strucked in St-Petersburg, who is the mint master then ? Why putting a star on edge in stead of mint master initials ? Strange. Also, it is a 100 franks coin. Everything is pointing to a french mint. Maybe it was supposed to be minted there, but something didn't work out.

Just IMHO:

 

According to V.V. Kazakov, all of the dies and edging tools for coins which were struck in Paris and Brussels (roubles and half roubles) having one or two stars on the edge were made at the mint in St. Petersburg and later shipped abroad. In V.V. Uzdenikov's "Notes on the tables" nr. 205 concerning the 37-1/2 rouble / 100 Francs donative gold coin, he writes: "It is possible that originally a mass mintage of such coins was meant for foreign payments".

 

If this is the case, it would seem plausible that the edging tools and the dies were prepared with the intention of striking the coins in Paris. Later, before the coins were struck, the decision was made to strike only the small amount of donative coins (a little over 200) which are known, so there was no need to send the equipment to Paris for such a small amount of coins. Instead, the already prepared dies and edging tools were used in St. Petersburg. Wouldn't have been worth the trouble to prepare new edging tools with (A.P) just for 200 coins -- perhaps there was also no time for it.

[one-kuna]

where can I find this, is this a book or article, thank you:

"In V.V. Uzdenikov's "Notes on the tables" nr. 205 concerning the 37-1/2 rouble / 100 Francs donative gold coin"

[bobh]

where can I find this, is this a book or article, thank you:

"In V.V. Uzdenikov's "Notes on the tables" nr. 205 concerning the 37-1/2 rouble / 100 Francs donative gold coin"

It is in his reference book "Monety Rossii" (2nd edition, English on p. 504 - текст по-русски в стр. 490, «Примечания к таблицам»). The table listing the donative coins starts on p. 401 of the 2nd edition - it is coin number 4212 in that book (I believe the numbers changed in the 3rd edition?) Next to the description for the coin is a small number 205 which refers to the notes.

[RW Julian]

Although it is possible that the Russian Treasury was planning to have gold coins

struck at Paris, I doubt that this was the case for the following reasons:

 

1) For international transactions the United States $20 gold (double eagle) was

widely used for transfers of gold. The French did strike 100 franc pieces but

coinages were very limited, often under 25,000 pieces per year. This indicates

that a Russian 37.5 roubles/100 francs coin would not have been used for

international fund transfers.

 

2) Punches and edging devices were on hand at St. Petersburg for this size gold

coin, as is shown by the 1896 25 rouble piece, also struck at St. Petersburg even

though carrying a star on the edge. It would have taken a skilled machinist only a

short time to prepare an edging device with the proper (AP) mintmaster initials.

 

3) The coinages at Brussels and Paris in the late 1890s were emergency in nature

as the Treasury was trying to put as much coinage in circulation as possible for the

monetary reform to succeed. There was no emergency in 1902 and the St. Petersburg

Mint had capacity to spare for coinage.

 

4) The 1902 pieces were almost certainly struck in the medal department as they were

not, strictly speaking, authorized by the 1899 coinage law. It is likely that this was the

reason for the star on the edge.

 

RWJ

[one-kuna]

It is in his reference book "Monety Rossii" (2nd edition, English on p. 504 - текст по-русски в стр. 490, «Примечания к таблицам»). The table listing the donative coins starts on p. 401 of the 2nd edition - it is coin number 4212 in that book (I believe the numbers changed in the 3rd edition?) Next to the description for the coin is a small number 205 which refers to the notes.

 

Uzdenikov's catalog 1st, 2nd and 3rd editions are just standard catalogs (like Krause) and do not bear full / comprehensive explanatory notes, brief notes* - yes, but just notes, not explanations.

*notes sometimes can be uncertain; good sample is our sample - there are no notes in 1st and 3rd editions about this coin.

The reference under number 205 is just a reference, not the answer of HIS own question.

Also, as mentioned right above, - 1st edition and 3rd one do not have such reference notes at all !!

 

The reference and citate which I provided is from Uzdenikov latest book 2004 with about 50 (complete) his competent articles on russian numismatics. So, on page 397 in his article "The French trace in russian coin striking", he says

that "...why is a star on the edge were minted instead of mintmaster initials leaves a mystery for him...

that is what Uzdenikov said.