1859-1885 Poltina

[janneen]

Hello everyone!

 

In Bitkin's book there are two eagle varieties of 1859-1885 poltina: Small and large eagle. I got this

picture from a earlier topic (by kisenish):

 

http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?act=at...ost&id=2787

 

Which indicates these two eagles have clearly different designs. Here's my coin (1859):

 

http://www.omnicoin.com/coin_view_enlarge.aspx?id=955005

 

It has the design of small eagle but size of large eagle? What do you think?

 

Is it so that design of 1859 was later used with a slightly smaller eagle? All the poltinas of 1859 I found from the web were of this "larger small eagle" design.

 

Janne

[janneen]

>moved this text to the original post <

[Candidate]

Hello

 

Firstly, examples of poltinas with small and large eagles (which you gave a link to) are of different year - in the range of 1873-1877.

It is clear as they have "НI" mark.

(1859 poltina has "ФБ").

And I think that some differences between 1859 eagle design and next years' eagles designs - both small and large - exist.

 

Secondly, Bitkin differentiates 1859 poltina varieties not by eagle on obverse, but by the crown design on reverse side, as follows:

# 96 (R3) with larger crown

# 97 (not rare) with smaller crown

 

Bit.96 is extremely rare; on recent MIM auction it was described as "only 2 ex. known" (referring to "pre-revolutionary" Ilyin

catalogue and 1908-1909 Markov auctions).

But it has shown up at auctions in Russia 3 times already during 1 past year (though it seems that 2 last times it was same coin):

 

- "XF-UNC" sold at NIKO auction at approx. $40K in October 2008;

- "UNC" sold at Russian Numismatic House auction at $39K + comission in April 2009;

- sold at MIM just around a week ago at approx. $20K (described as "VF" but looks same coin as was at NIKO)

 

(see pictures http://m-dv.ru/catalog/id,1004/all-prohod.html ; by the way it is one new on-line resource showing coming and

ended auctions which feature Russian imperial coins; together with rather convenient, to my opinion, database of auctioned

coins over past several years)

 

And finally, as the known data of 1859 poltina mintage is 1,392,000 pcs., there even may be other small varities existing

inside year 1859 which no one simply cared to study and describe before...

[janneen]

Thank you for your informative post.

 

Yes, I'm aware that those two coins are from different years. But, according to Bitkin there are only two eagle varieties between 1859-1885, but it seems small eagles of 1859 and other years of small eagle are different in size.

 

In Bitkin a line is drawn between 1859 reverse and small eagle observe (I hope I got observe-reverse right). So you should think the eagle should be of that year, but it's not. Actual size is bigger for that particular year (at least in those I found from the web).

 

The question here was only about reverse varieties.

[Candidate]

But, according to Bitkin there are only two eagle varieties between 1859-1885, but it seems small eagles of 1859 and other years of small eagle are different in size.

 

There are some mistakes in Bitkin's catalogue, this is one of them.

 

Actually there are not 2 but 3 types of obverse (eagle) of poltinas between 1859-1885.

 

1st type: 1859-1860 - larger eagle; St.George without mantle.

2nd type: 1860-1885 - larger eagle of different design; St.George in mantle.

3rd type: 1873-1877 - smaller eagle; St.George in mantle.

[janneen]

There are some mistakes in Bitkin's catalogue, this is one of them.

 

Also I believe the wrong variety has "R" in 25 kopeks 1859.

 

Any more errors in Bitkin?

[Candidate]

Also I believe the wrong variety has "R" in 25 kopeks 1859.

Any more errors in Bitkin?

 

I believe, I noticed some others myself and have been pointed out some as well: such as mistakes in description, wrong pictures, absence of some key varieties, presence of some non-existent or unconfirmed varieties, etc.

Not speaking about rarity designations (R/R1, etc.) - as rarity of some rare coins not mentioned at all and vice versa.

But there are rumours about next edition being prepared by V.Bitkin where mistakes will be corrected hopefully.

[one-kuna]

I believe, I noticed some others myself and have been pointed out some as well: such as mistakes in description, wrong pictures, absence of some key varieties, presence of some non-existent or unconfirmed varieties, etc.

Not speaking about rarity designations (R/R1, etc.) - as rarity of some rare coins not mentioned at all and vice versa.

But there are rumours about next edition being prepared by V.Bitkin where mistakes will be corrected hopefully.

do you think a new edition coming up or he will place his mistakes/corrections/additions to his website?

pls read your PM as well

[Candidate]

do you think a new edition coming up or he will place his mistakes/corrections/additions to his website?

 

I don't know.

Over past 2-3 years Mr.Bitkin was asked many times whether he is preparing 3rd edition.

As I understand, before he was too busy with his medals catalogue; and his editor has once replied at

one of numismatics web-forums that new edition is not planned, it will not be published soon and in

any case not before the medals catalogue is ready.

(Though that was told about 3 years ago and medals catalogue was published almost a year ago already).

So even if there are hopes that we will see new edition sooner or later - for now it's just rumours and

speculations, unfortunately.

Maybe it's now time to ask Mr.Bitkin again - via his web-site, for example.

[one-kuna]

I don't know.

Over past 2-3 years Mr.Bitkin was asked many times whether he is preparing 3rd edition.

As I understand, before he was too busy with his medals catalogue; and his editor has once replied at

one of numismatics web-forums that new edition is not planned, it will not be published soon and in

any case not before the medals catalogue is ready.

(Though that was told about 3 years ago and medals catalogue was published almost a year ago already).

So even if there are hopes that we will see new edition sooner or later - for now it's just rumours and

speculations, unfortunately.

Maybe it's now time to ask Mr.Bitkin again - via his web-site, for example.

 

I think he has his own strategy and he may not disclosed any info on new issue

[STEVE MOULDING]

I think he has his own strategy and he may not disclosed any info on new issue

Is the third edition going to be free to those who've bought the previous 2 editions? Are all the catalog numbers going to be completely different again? I have neither the space nor the money for an ongoing series of these things.