bobh Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Link: 10 kopeks 1796, "Cipher series" The overstriking looks very convincing ... however, there are some issues with the alignment and shape of the letters. In all of the images of original (not novodel) strikes, the "1" of the denomination is farther to the left relative to the letter "С" in the word "ДЕСАТЬ" below it; also, the letter "Я" seems to have the wrong shape in the Nudelman image. If anyone can point me to an image or documentation which matches the auction images exactly, I'd be grateful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted October 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 OK, I think I have cleared up my question about this one. I believe it is genuine, but there is something very puzzling about it! Comparing with all images known to me, it matches exactly Brekke 42 / Bitkin H888 (yes, a novodel). Here are the catalog images... Brekke 42: Bitkin H888 (and H889-H891, all the same type but with different edges): For comparison, here are the Nudelman images: Of course, what is intriguing here, is that we have very clear overstriking! So ... were the dies used to make the novodel actually some original dies, and this coin is not a novodel, but an original specimen?? That would make it exceedingly rare, perhaps even unique! Or did they create the novodel by overstriking an original coin with newer dies? If this is actually a novodel, it seems highly unlikely that a coin was used as undercoin which was a little bit too small, and somewhat irregular in shape ... In the Nudelman auction, part of the edge is also visible, obviously a netted edge (5). Brekke lists his no. 42 as having edge <7>, which is the very fine netted edge. Bitkin, however, lists the edge for H891 as <5>, which would also be consistent with an overstruck Catherine II pyatak from earlier years. In either case, this makes for an EXTREMELY INTERESTING COIN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 OK, I think I have cleared up my question about this one. I believe it is genuine, but there is something very puzzling about it! Comparing with all images known to me, it matches exactly Brekke 42 / Bitkin H888 (yes, a novodel). Here are the catalog images... Brekke 42: Bitkin H888 (and H889-H891, all the same type but with different edges): For comparison, here are the Nudelman images: Of course, what is intriguing here, is that we have very clear overstriking! So ... were the dies used to make the novodel actually some original dies, and this coin is not a novodel, but an original specimen?? That would make it exceedingly rare, perhaps even unique! Or did they create the novodel by overstriking an original coin with newer dies? If this is actually a novodel, it seems highly unlikely that a coin was used as undercoin which was a little bit too small, and somewhat irregular in shape ... In the Nudelman auction, part of the edge is also visible, obviously a netted edge (5). Brekke lists his no. 42 as having edge <7>, which is the very fine netted edge. Bitkin, however, lists the edge for H891 as <5>, which would also be consistent with an overstruck Catherine II pyatak from earlier years. In either case, this makes for an EXTREMELY INTERESTING COIN! it might be a mule too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted October 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 So ... what do you think, is it a novodel or original? At any rate, it is definitely not Brekke 35. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted October 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 So ... what do you think, is it a novodel or original? At any rate, it is definitely not Brekke 35. Anybody? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 Anybody? Well, I'm not a copper specialist, but I can't recall seeing very many novodels that were overstruck on earlier coins. Typically, they seem to be struck on new flans. Secondly, novodels were sometimes struck using original dies when they still existed in usable condition (or new dies when they did not). Putting those facts together, it seems possible that this (assuming it is genuine) is an original coin and that these dies were later used to create novodels. I am curious to know what the copper specialists will have to say about this most interesting coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted October 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 Thanks for your feedback, grivna1726. Well, I'm not a copper specialist, but I can't recall seeing very many novodels that were overstruck on earlier coins. Typically, they seem to be struck on new flans. That's what I thought, too ... are there ANY known novodels which were overstruck on earlier coins? Secondly, novodels were sometimes struck using original dies when they still existed in usable condition (or new dies when they did not).Putting those facts together, it seems possible that this (assuming it is genuine) is an original coin and that these dies were later used to create novodels. I am curious to know what the copper specialists will have to say about this most interesting coin. My thoughts are also tending in this direction ... that the dies used for the novodels documented by Bitkin and Brekke were actually original dies. That would make the novodels Class 1 as opposed to Class 2 novodels. But if this is the case, it would be the first time an original cipher with those dies was ever found since there seems to be no documentation for it anywhere. Although fake overstrikes have been seen, the upper coin's design matches the references so exactly that I am still inclined to believe that it is a genuine, original strike and therefore quite rare! But only a very thorough examination of the physical coin, as opposed to images, can tell for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 There are several known dies for the originals and I have images of examples where the 'Ya' matches this. I think this coin looks ok in most respects...no problems with the design. Only thing is the lettering is far crisper than it usually would be. I don't think it's a Novodel. Best Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted October 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 There are several known dies for the originals and I have images of examples where the 'Ya' matches this. I think this coin looks ok in most respects...no problems with the design. Only thing is the lettering is far crisper than it usually would be. I don't think it's a Novodel. Thanks, Steve ... I was hoping you would eventually join in here! What about the alignment of the digit "1" relative to the letters below and other details? The novodel illustrated at Brekke 42 / Bitkin H888 is an exact match, AFAICT; subtle things such as the ever-so-slight downward slant of the dividing line above the date relative to the letters matches up as well as the monogram on the other side. The crispness (or lack of it) could be attributed to different lighting, I suppose. Would it be too much of a bother to post some of your images here (e.g. the other side of your avatar)? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 http://cgi.ebay.com/10-KOPEKS-1796-RUSSIA-...id=p3911.c0.m14 and http://cgi.ebay.com/4-KOPEKS-1796-RUSSIA-N...=item335644c1cf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted October 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 http://cgi.ebay.com/10-KOPEKS-1796-RUSSIA-...id=p3911.c0.m14and http://cgi.ebay.com/4-KOPEKS-1796-RUSSIA-N...=item335644c1cf "The herd, weight also threw - original..." Thanks for the links ... wasn't thinking of this kind of "novodel", though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 "The herd, weight also threw - original..." Thanks for the links ... wasn't thinking of this kind of "novodel", though! Just putting up the possibliity..... note that the fake was done on an original coin, and that the appearance is "flattened" much like the Nudelman Lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted October 9, 2009 Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 Just putting up the possibliity..... note that the fake was done on an original coin, and that the appearance is "flattened" much like the Nudelman Lot. what facts are against a mule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted October 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2009 what facts are against a mule Do you mean novodel on one side only? Or a novodel with one side from an original die and the other from a die of later creation? Of course, there are many novodels made like this. But ... the fact that there is an undercoin (i.e. it is overstruck) makes it sort of irrelevant, IMHO. And the obverse side matches the Brekke 42 and Bitkin H888 images, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Thanks, Steve ... I was hoping you would eventually join in here! : Would it be too much of a bother to post some of your images here (e.g. the other side of your avatar)? Thanks! emailed my reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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