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5kop1778EM - eagle variant


sigistenz
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Hi all, being an eagle hunter I acquired the coin in the center, a 5kop1778EM with an unusual eagle. Note that the wings begin below the 2nd chain ornament, whereas the normal 1778 eagle's wings begin below the 3rd ornament. See picture on the left.

My new find is not quite the 1779 eagle pictured at the right for comparison.

In my archives there are 125 pictures of the 5kop1778EM. Only 4 of them (3,2%) display the center eagle. It is thus quite scarce.

What do you say? Thanks as always for your comments to come :ninja: Sigi

2x5kop1778em1x5kop1779e.jpg

By sigistenz

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Hi all, being an eagle hunter I acquired the coin in the center, a 5kop1778EM with an unusual eagle. Note that the wings begin below the 2nd chain ornament, whereas the normal 1778 eagle's wings begin below the 3rd ornament. See picture on the left.

My new find is not quite the 1779 eagle pictured at the right for comparison.

In my archives there are 125 pictures of the 5kop1778EM. Only 4 of them (3,2%) display the center eagle. It is thus quite scarce.

What do you say? Thanks as always for your comments to come :ninja: Sigi

 

According to JRNS <<<catalog on Catherine II piataks>>>, page 21 demostrates same piece under #44 (1778) with no scarcity/rarity scale; and you might know that Bitkin catalog does not recognise this variant at all ;)

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In my archives there are 125 pictures of the 5kop1778EM. Only 4 of them (3,2%) display the center eagle. It is thus quite scarce.

What do you say?

I say congratulations on your new acquisition and for being sufficiently observant to recognize an apparently underappreciated rarity. :ninja:

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This piece could be a transitional one, so apparently is NOT scarce and rare for collectors from Russia; I can explain why - because too many variants exist for copper coins so either catalog can reflect them nore collectors could complete the whole series ever - this is a major conception for russian numismatics in Russia today! I do not agree on many points of Adrianov new copper catalog but this conception I support ! :ninja:

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Thank you for your contributions! I agree that there are innumerous variants, most of them not very significant. To my taste, this variant differs enough to be placed beside its companion of normal design. As I said, among my 125 pictures of 1778s there are only 4 to match this one. All the other eagles are more or less of the normal design pictured left. And none of my 125 pictures shows the 1779 eagle (=Bitkin R). I always appreciate other collectors' observations. They make one reconsider the own opinion.

Thank you again, :ninja: Sigi

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This piece could be a transitional one, so apparently is NOT scarce and rare for collectors from Russia; I can explain why - because too many variants exist for copper coins so either catalog can reflect them nore collectors could complete the whole series ever - this is a major conception for russian numismatics in Russia today! I do not agree on many points of Adrianov new copper catalog but this conception I support ! :ninja:

 

Actually this variant is listed in Adrianov's new copper catalog. This is indeed the "transitional" eagle. Adrianov describes this variety for 1778, 1779 and 1781. I guess the 1780 variant has not been discovered... yet.

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Actually this variant is listed in Adrianov's new copper catalog. This is indeed the "transitional" eagle. Adrianov describes this variety for 1778, 1779 and 1781. I guess the 1780 variant has not been discovered... yet.

Please excuse what may seem a stupid question, but bear in mind that I am not a copper specialist - Why does the transition exist for so many years rather than just one year?

 

When the eagle was changed to Dassier's version on the roubles, the change from the old to new type took place in only one year. Why are the copper coins so different in this respect?

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Please excuse what may seem a stupid question, but bear in mind that I am not a copper specialist - Why does the transition exist for so many years rather than just one year?

 

When the eagle was changed to Dassier's version on the roubles, the change from the old to new type took place in only one year. Why are the copper coins so different in this respect?

 

I would imagine many dies were made, and were used until they were completely destroyed. Dies created close to the time when the design was changed remained in service, it appears for several years. As for silver, I would guess that fewer die were produced in the first place, and perhaps ( :ninja: ) striking silver would wear the dies out quicker than striking copper.

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russian numismatics as a science went finally forward very fast for last decade covering many gaps and leaving so much more so what you used to stay with one-two decades ago now has been changed and you need to accept a new modern positions and do not stay with old, antique opinions; how simple is this :ninja:

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I would imagine many dies were made, and were used until they were completely destroyed. Dies created close to the time when the design was changed remained in service, it appears for several years. As for silver, I would guess that fewer die were produced in the first place, and perhaps ( :ninja: ) striking silver would wear the dies out quicker than striking copper.

Thank you for your reply.

 

Pure silver is softer than pure copper, but Russian silver coins were not made of pure silver and I don't know the hardness of the alloy used. I think the copper coins probably also contained at least traces of other metals (if not an actual alloy). So their relative hardness is unknown to me.

 

It makes sense that fewer dies would be prepared for silver coins because the majority of the coins in daily use were copper coins, which suggests that more dies for copper denominations would be required (and probably also more hubs). It seems unlikely that usable existing dies would be destroyed just to accommodate a revised design.

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anything on 1778 5 kopeks besides a fiction ?

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Actually this variant is listed in Adrianov's new copper catalog. This is indeed the "transitional" eagle. Adrianov describes this variety for 1778, 1779 and 1781. I guess the 1780 variant has not been discovered... yet.

Would you be so nice as to describe that catalog with a few words? What is its exact title, how (and at what price) can it be obtained by a westerner? Are there evaluations or rarity indications? Would you recommend it for a pyatak variant hunter? :ninja: Tanks, Sigi

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Would you be so nice as to describe that catalog with a few words? What is its exact title, how (and at what price) can it be obtained by a westerner? Are there evaluations or rarity indications? Would you recommend it for a pyatak variant hunter? :ninja: Tanks, Sigi

 

The details are in this thread:

 

http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?showto...56&hl=books

 

The name of the book, that you might be interested in, is simply “Copper Coins (or Coinage) of The Imperial Russia”. Original title - Медные монеты Российской Империи.

 

Price is 2400 roubles + shipping charges. You’ll need to contact the author to find out more.

 

I like that book, but it is not perfect. The author chose to give price valuations (in Roubles) based on his knowledge of the Russian market, which in my opinion is not the same as rarity rating. Some prices in this book are a bit puzzling (IMHO). As I recall, the book also list rarity attributed by Uzdenikov and prices by Iliyn. Also the book is in Russian (only). But at the same time, I like the illustrations of the copper variants that he provides. And he probably has the most complete list of overdates and recut mint marks, which is also periodically updated on the Coins.su forum (Russian only):

 

http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=28157

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Thank you, Alex! I'll try to find my way to get the book. Thank you also for your comment on my first OmniCoin entries. I'm planning to show all my coins there, doing and inserting the pictures at the rate of 1 per day.

Sigi

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Thank you, Alex! I'll try to find my way to get the book. Thank you also for your comment on my first OmniCoin entries. I'm planning to show all my coins there, doing and inserting the pictures at the rate of 1 per day.

Sigi

 

Only 1 per day!? Way to build up suspense :ninja:

 

Let me know if you need any assistance in communicating with Mr Adrianov. BTW he is (I believe) on vacation until the 12th(?)

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Only 1 per day!? Way to build up suspense :ninja:

 

Let me know if you need any assistance in communicating with Mr Adrianov. BTW he is (I believe) on vacation until the 12th(?)

 

Hi Alex, as to 1 per day: Even so it takes me 1/2 hour - a day. I am however somewhat disappointed at the unsharp pictures on OmniCoin. It seems to be impossible to show an overdate.

 

My horoscope says today: "Do accept help when offered." Yes, I gladly accept your offer to assist with the book. I don't read Russian, could avoid it with bilingual books as Petrov, Uzdenikov, Diakov, Bitkin, etc.

As you seem to be in contact with Mr Adrianov - could you get him to send his Copper book to my German address? I would pay you the $$ beforehand, of course. And - I would owe you a favor, too. Thanks - a lot, Sigi

P.S.: See here my latest acquisition, hoping to decipher the essential of a pure Russian text on a matter that I am familiar with.

p1030790.jpg

By sigistenz

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Only 1 per day!? Way to build up suspense ;)

 

Let me know if you need any assistance in communicating with Mr Adrianov. BTW he is (I believe) on vacation until the 12th(?)

 

I agree with Alexbq2! ;)

 

I think a much more ambitious goal would be all coins for a DATE per day! That still give you 3 or 4 months to get to the mid 1800's!!! ;);):ninja:

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Hi Alex, as to 1 per day: Even so it takes me 1/2 hour - a day. I am however somewhat disappointed at the unsharp pictures on OmniCoin. It seems to be impossible to show an overdate.

 

My horoscope says today: "Do accept help when offered." Yes, I gladly accept your offer to assist with the book. I don't read Russian, could avoid it with bilingual books as Petrov, Uzdenikov, Diakov, Bitkin, etc.

As you seem to be in contact with Mr Adrianov - could you get him to send his Copper book to my German address? I would pay you the $$ beforehand, of course. And - I would owe you a favor, too. Thanks - a lot, Sigi

P.S.: See here my latest acquisition, hoping to decipher the essential of a pure Russian text on a matter that I am familiar with.

 

 

I only talked to Mr. Adrianov with regard to purchasing his books, and some follow up questions. I suggest you can use the following template to contact him through email.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Здравствуйте,

 

Я хотел бы приобрести вашу книгу Медные Монеты Российской Империи. Пожалуйста сообщите сколько стоит книга с пересылкой на этот адрес:

 

“Insert your address here”

 

С Уважением,

“Insert your name here”

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I assume he will reply in Russian. And he will explain how much to pay for the book and S/H charges, and probably that you need to pay through Kontact. You can forward his email to me if you need any help. I had posted some instructions on how to work with the Kontact system in the Adrianov Books thread.

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Thank you Alex, fair enough. With my new book I could understand what you wrote word by word. And with your help I sent my first email in Russian. I think I could fall in love with that language. It's a bit like a new girl friend!! :ninja:

Thank you for putting me on the rails. Best, Sigi

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Only 1 per day!? Way to build up suspense ;)

Dear Josh, it's good to read you again! Today I did 3 entries, but it is a matter of time. I have a wife who's always telling me what to do

-and that's never coins-.:ninja: Sigi

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