marv Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Having come back to this forum after an absence of a few weeks, it's interesting to me that no one seems to have commented on the incredibly high prices realized for a few Russian coins in the Goldberg sale of May 26th. Perhaps I missed the thread, but several roubles realized 5-14 times their estimates. Most of the really high roublels had prooflike surfaces, so I'm theorizing that at least two bidders thought they were proofs. Lot 3651, an 1830 rouble, NGC MS63-PL, with an estimate of 2000-2500 hammered at $10,000. (Found this coin on coin archives as lot 8565 in Gorny Sale 173 realized $20,000 as a proof so buyer at that sale took a bath) Gorny 173 Lot 3653, an 1837 rouble with hairlines, graded (raw) AU-UNC, estimate $750-$1000 hammered at $14,000. (Found this coin on coin archives as lot 626 in a Rauch sale 11 Jan 2009 as a proof hammered at $18,000) Rauch sale Very strange that Goldbergs would not use these earlier grades of proof on these coins. Lot 3655, an 1843 rouble, NGC MS-63-PL, with an estimate of $750-$1000 hammered at $12,000. (This one's probably a proof also) Lot 3657, an 1846 rouble, NGC MS-63, with an estimate of $500-$700 hammered at $4,000. I don't understand these very low estimates on those coins. Click the Link to the Goldberg auction and scroll down to the Russian section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Having come back to this forum after an absence of a few weeks, it's interesting to me that no one seems to have commented on the incredibly high prices realized for a few Russian coins in the Goldberg sale of May 26th. Perhaps I missed the thread, but several roubles realized 5-14 times their estimates. Most of the really high roublels had prooflike surfaces, so I'm theorizing that at least two bidders thought they were proofs. Lot 3651, an 1830 rouble, NGC MS63-PL, with an estimate of 2000-2500 hammered at $10,000. (Found this coin on coin archives as lot 8565 in Gorny Sale 173 realized $20,000 as a proof so buyer at that sale took a bath) Gorny 173 Lot 3653, an 1837 rouble with hairlines, graded (raw) AU-UNC, estimate $750-$1000 hammered at $14,000. (Found this coin on coin archives as lot 626 in a Rauch sale 11 Jan 2009 as a proof hammered at $18,000) Rauch sale Very strange that Goldbergs would not use these earlier grades of proof on these coins. Lot 3655, an 1843 rouble, NGC MS-63-PL, with an estimate of $750-$1000 hammered at $12,000. (This one's probably a proof also) Lot 3657, an 1846 rouble, NGC MS-63, with an estimate of $500-$700 hammered at $4,000. I don't understand these very low estimates on those coins. Click the Link to the Goldberg auction and scroll down to the Russian section. Marv, nice investigative work What we have here is a seller who is trying to sell his coins for more than market is willing to pay. So he takes his coins from auction, to auction, to auction... looking for the right bidder. And since auction houses offer "buy back"... You get the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Marv, nice investigative work What we have here is a seller who is trying to sell his coins for more than market is willing to pay. So he takes his coins from auction, to auction, to auction... looking for the right bidder. And since auction houses offer "buy back"... You get the picture. I was wondering if GM medal to the Visitor was sold out or taken back by a consignor not finding a right buyer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Marv, nice investigative work What we have here is a seller who is trying to sell his coins for more than market is willing to pay. So he takes his coins from auction, to auction, to auction... looking for the right bidder. And since auction houses offer "buy back"... You get the picture. I'm not sure I understand correctly. Are you saying that the prices realized (e.g. Lot 3651, an 1830 rouble, NGC MS63-PL, with an estimate of 2000-2500 hammered at $10,000) is not a real sale, but the seller bought it back at that price? In my opinion, it should be listed as "not sold" if that is the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheburgen Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 What is the point of selling any coins on the auction and buying it yourself? Don't you loose the money in this case? If you meant that somebody is going to buy the coin based on the price which was paid on the auction, it's: . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 What is the point of selling any coins on the auction and buying it yourself? Don't you loose the money in this case? If you meant that somebody is going to buy the coin based on the price which was paid on the auction, it's: . I suspect that happened in the Stack's auction of the Firth of Clyde collection back in April, many many of the choice coins did not sell. The house bought them apparently to keep them from selling at depressed prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Marv, nice investigative work What we have here is a seller who is trying to sell his coins for more than market is willing to pay. So he takes his coins from auction, to auction, to auction... looking for the right bidder. And since auction houses offer "buy back"... You get the picture. few here do not get "buy back" policy as they do not use an auction houses to sell their coins for a while of course every year someting new come up with auction policy / agreement / consignment / flexibility it cannot be same as twenty years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 I suspect that happened in the Stack's auction of the Firth of Clyde collection back in April, many many of the choice coins did not sell. The house bought them apparently to keep them from selling at depressed prices. Markets are still under deflationary pressures, but that will probably change, perhaps quite suddenly and in the opposite direction. Unless desperate, almost no-one will let rare and/or choice coins go at fire sale prices. I believe most prices (not just coins) will move strongly upward in the coming years (at least in terms of dollars). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 I don't understand these very low estimates on those coins. The low estimates on some coins can be a simple technic / strategy of auction house used to attract prospective bidders for their material being auctioned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 I'm not sure I understand correctly. Are you saying that the prices realized (e.g. Lot 3651, an 1830 rouble, NGC MS63-PL, with an estimate of 2000-2500 hammered at $10,000) is not a real sale, but the seller bought it back at that price? In my opinion, it should be listed as "not sold" if that is the case. I am not about to start making accusation here. I simply express my opinion. But, does anyone think it makes sense, especially in 2009, for a coin with ~$20,000 hammer price from a recent European auction to pop up in the next US auction just a few months later looking for appreciation on investment? These coin were not that special for this level of prices in the first place. BTW, I agree with grivna's last sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 I was wondering if GM medal to the Visitor was sold out or taken back by a consignor not finding a right buyer To my knowledge the medal was sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 What is the point of selling any coins on the auction and buying it yourself? Don't you loose the money in this case? If you meant that somebody is going to buy the coin based on the price which was paid on the auction, it's: . Here is what I meant: It all depends on the business objective and how much money is in play. If on average one is profitable at the end of the year buying and selling coins - that's all that matters. The coins discussed here are not "small potatoes" sold by "small time" sellers. No disrespect to anyone, but just stating the obvious. As a side note, here is my advice to collectors (from experience), which I am sure is followed by everyone visiting this forum: - If there is a coin you want, come up with your educated maximum and do not go over it. - Do not continue bidding just because someone else is bidding. - If you know that you are hot-headed and can break your own rules during the auction, ask your friend to bid for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 And since auction houses offer "buy back"... You get the picture. What about the 15% (usual) buyer's fee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 I am not about to start making accusation here. I simply express my opinion.But, does anyone think it makes sense, especially in 2009, for a coin with ~$20,000 hammer price from a recent European auction to pop up in the next US auction just a few months later looking for appreciation on investment? These coin were not that special for this level of prices in the first place. Thank you for the clarification of your remarks. I thought I must have misunderstood you and am pleased to learn that I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Having come back to this forum after an absence of a few weeks, it's interesting to me that no one seems to have commented on the incredibly high prices realized for a few Russian coins in the Goldberg sale of May 26th. Perhaps I missed the thread, but several roubles realized 5-14 times their estimates. Most of the really high roublels had prooflike surfaces, so I'm theorizing that at least two bidders thought they were proofs. Lot 3651, an 1830 rouble, NGC MS63-PL, with an estimate of 2000-2500 hammered at $10,000. (Found this coin on coin archives as lot 8565 in Gorny Sale 173 realized $20,000 as a proof so buyer at that sale took a bath) Gorny 173 Lot 3653, an 1837 rouble with hairlines, graded (raw) AU-UNC, estimate $750-$1000 hammered at $14,000. (Found this coin on coin archives as lot 626 in a Rauch sale 11 Jan 2009 as a proof hammered at $18,000) Rauch sale Very strange that Goldbergs would not use these earlier grades of proof on these coins. Lot 3655, an 1843 rouble, NGC MS-63-PL, with an estimate of $750-$1000 hammered at $12,000. (This one's probably a proof also) Lot 3657, an 1846 rouble, NGC MS-63, with an estimate of $500-$700 hammered at $4,000. I don't understand these very low estimates on those coins. Click the Link to the Goldberg auction and scroll down to the Russian section. I think when description says MS63 only - it is one story; if it says MS63 Prooflike - it is another; I looked at these coins again - they also can be undergraded by NGC to the buyer opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 What about the 15% (usual) buyer's fee? If one is doing 6 figures plus a year business with an auction house, I think this number would be significantly lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marv Posted June 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 Sellers' agreements with auction houses can be all over the map. If you're bringing a million dollar collection to an auction house, you are going to get a great deal of leeway about buy-back fees, commissions, reserves, etc., whereas if you're bringing a few lower-end coins to the house, you probably won't get many breaks on anything. It also helps if you work with a well-known dealer that has a realtionship to the house. The house wants to keep that dealer happy as he/she may bring many collections to the house, so you, the seller, might get a better deal through the dealer than you would if you approached the house on your own. It's conceivable that the house gave the seller of coins in this thread a free buy back just to get those coins in the auction. Auction houses are hurting now, so they have to work harder to attract significant coins. There's nothing cast in concrete when it comes to selling coins at auction. I've also heard that auction houses are being more hard-nosed about high reserve prices, since if they don't sell coins, they don't get paid, so sellers might be more inclined to protect their coins during the auction, and if they end up buying back the coins, then, as I said, it may cost the seller or it may not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Sellers' agreements with auction houses can be all over the map. If you're bringing a million dollar collection to an auction house, you are going to get a great deal of leeway about buy-back fees, commissions, reserves, etc., whereas if you're bringing a few lower-end coins to the house, you probably won't get many breaks on anything. It also helps if you work with a well-known dealer that has a realtionship to the house. The house wants to keep that dealer happy as he/she may bring many collections to the house, so you, the seller, might get a better deal through the dealer than you would if you approached the house on your own. It's conceivable that the house gave the seller of coins in this thread a free buy back just to get those coins in the auction. Auction houses are hurting now, so they have to work harder to attract significant coins. There's nothing cast in concrete when it comes to selling coins at auction. I've also heard that auction houses are being more hard-nosed about high reserve prices, since if they don't sell coins, they don't get paid, so sellers might be more inclined to protect their coins during the auction, and if they end up buying back the coins, then, as I said, it may cost the seller or it may not. was your initial question answered since you giving some explanations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 1843 Ruble sold there is very rare, with rarity of R2. 1837 Ruble is also much better variety with rarity R, but hairlined too much. I think the price for 1843 Ruble was not that high considering the rarity of the coin and its quality. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marv Posted June 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 was your initial question answered since you giving some explanations... I was hoping that others, more knowledgeable than I, might be able to shed some light on: 1. The ultra low estimates given for the coins as well as the NGC mint state grades versus earlier European proof designation - was the Goldberg catalogger not aware of the earlier sales? 2. The appearance of these coins so soon after their earlier "sale" - indicates to me either a buy back at the earlier sale or extreme financial distress of the buyer. 3. The lower hammer price at the Goldberg sale - a "real" buy or another buyback? I enjoyed the discussion. That's what makes these forums so enjoyable. Hearing from many different people with different amounts of experience. Marv Finnley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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