A technical British property question

[elverno]

When a reference refers to a "Hundred", such as the Blackburn Hundred, is it referring literally to something like say, one hundred acres of land? Or one hundred square miles? It appears to be related to townships.

 

I see references to "Hundreds" particularly in British medal and Conder token books and suspect that this is yet another way that British land is divvied up? Anyone want to enlighten or confuse a poor Yank?

[YeOldeCollector]

A hundred is a geographical area used mainly in England and Wales and I believe it stems from the fact that that area could raise 100 men of arms if needed for the local baron. In England it originates from the early to mid Saxon era which is of great interest to myself and you can divide a hundred further into tithings and hides where a hundred could support one hundred households with one hundred men at arms a tithing could support ten and a hide just one.

[constanius]

Clive is correct as usual. Just a bit more info about an obscure British custom relating to Hundreds:

 

Chiltern Hundreds

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Appointment to the office of Crown Steward and Bailiff of the three Chiltern Hundreds of Stoke, Desborough and Burnham is a sinecure appointment which is used as a device allowing a Member of the United Kingdom Parliament (MP) to resign his or her seat. The office is allocated in rotation with that of Steward of the Manor of Northstead.

A hundred is a traditional division of an English county, and the three hundreds of Stoke, Desborough, and Burnham are in Buckinghamshire. These three hundreds are situated in the hilly, wooded Chiltern Hills, which were once notorious as a hiding place for robbers.

The hundreds have been Crown property since at least the 13th century and a Crown Steward and Bailiff was appointed to maintain law and order in the area. As the area became more civilised, the position's duties ceased to be required in the 16th century, and the holder ceased to gain any benefits during the 17th century.

The position of Crown Steward and Bailiff of the Chiltern Hundreds is now used as a procedural device to effect resignation from the House of Commons, as British MPs are not permitted simply to resign their seat. This legal anomaly dates back to a resolution of the House of Commons of 2 March 1624, passed at a time when MPs were often elected to serve against their will.

 

In the North of England Wapentake was often used instead of Hundred, stemming from Danish occupation.

[elverno]

Most interesting. So why would the Blackburn Pitt club be the Blackburn Hundred Pitt Club? Just to take in a slightly larger territory? Do you think Englishmen of 1820 would identify themselves as living in the Blackburn Hundred? Do they (you?) think in those terms today?

 

[YeOldeCollector]

Most interesting. So why would the Blackburn Pitt club be the Blackburn Hundred Pitt Club? Just to take in a slightly larger territory? Do you think Englishmen of 1820 would identify themselves as living in the Blackburn Hundred? Do they (you?) think in those terms today?

 

Well the Blackburn club would have encompassed the surrounding area as well rather than the urban sprawl. There would have been people in lesser urban areas and living out in the sticks who would travel to the larger Blackburn area to be associated with the club.

 

Englishmen of the early 19th Century would be been very proud of the cultural heritage and national identity much more so than is the case now. England is a multi-race, multi-faith, multi-cultural country now and so I think old terms like that have faded away as the urban areas are becoming ever larger and greenbelt land seems to turn into grey belt and then forgotten about. I like to think about the history of the areas I'm in and some similar names can still be seen such as Windsor being split into Old Windsor too, but all too often do you see smaller areas become swallowed up by metropolises such as Woking now merging Horsell, Knaphill, West Byfleet etc.

 

You will probably enjoy this which a quick search turned up about the history of the particular area which your medal describes; http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=53105

[elverno]

Thanks for the quick reply. I suspected that the modern attitudes would be much like US folks think now of their particular state or county. For most, particularly urban dwellers, it doesn't have the impact or identity it would have had say in 1820 when travel and communication in general was much reduced from now. That said many areas of the US do retain that strong local identity and I'm sure that's true of many places in the UK.

 

The link is quite interesting, many thanks. I've bookmarked the site itself as a resource. It would be of interest to see a map overlay of the hundreds with contemporary counties (are shires counties? we don't have shires here in the States, at least my part ), I'll hunt for one.

 

Hundreds are also listed in descriptions concerning many Conder tokens of the 1790s. As such I wondered whether they might be a trading district but now realize they were also much more.

[constanius]

Shires was the anglo-saxon name for what became under the Normans counties. So technically though, as an example, Hertfordshire is a county, but retains it's old name with the 'shire' ending. So it is no longer a Shire but the County of Hertfordshire and the county town is Hertford.

 

Yorkshire is named for York but is now divided into 3 counties, North Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire which each having their own county councils (local governments).

 

Hope this is not too confusing!

[constanius]

Middlesex, Essex, Sussex were also counties but the names meant the middle-saxons, east-saxons, south-saxons. Norfolk & Suffolk are also counties but meant North folk etc.

 

Middlesex is now mostly in Greater London, but I still use Middlesex as an area name, as do a lot of people (I happened to be born there)

[YeOldeCollector]

Middlesex is now mostly in Greater London, but I still use Middlesex as an area name, as do a lot of people (I happened to be born there)

 

Ah, that would explain your enthusiasm about your "Spend a penny post". I'm just over in Surrey, not too far from Middlesex.

 

English place names are exceptionally confusing at the best of times so I cannot imagine how most foreigners manage. I do find it amusing when hearing tourists pronounce it "Lanca-shire" instead of our pronunciation of it as "Lanca-sheer". I was down in Salisbury the other day, not pronounced exactly how it is spelt, and heard tourists call Gloucester by the pronounciation of "Glou-chester". It really is confusing...

 

That said Vern, you are right. Plenty of places here have strong identities and there's often a sense of superiority/competitiveness over other areas which is great for sport teams and is only a bit of fun.

[constanius]

Plenty of places here have strong identities and there's often a sense of superiority/competitiveness over other areas which is great for sport teams and is only a bit of fun.

 

As in Kentish Men or Men of Kent!!!

 

I can remember when you had to be born in Yorkshire to be able to play for the county cricket team, my youngest son is a true Yorkshire Tyke (We lived 6 years in York) so would have qualified under the old rules.

 

Over here in Canada it is hard enough to explain the difference between Britain, British Isles, England, UK etc. Then I have to explain the rules of football, rugby & cricket. Great fun really

[Scottishmoney]

Thanks for the quick reply. I suspected that the modern attitudes would be much like US folks think now of their particular state or county.

 

 

Depends, some places have strong local identities, New York, Texas, Alaska, while others don't have such strong local identities, for instance the Midwest.