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2 Beard tokens in H.D. Rauch auction this week


bobh
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Does anyone else think they must have mixed up the estimates for these two?

:ninja:

estimates means nothing;

they could have experienced with estimates anyway and as a result - placed 120 / 400 gap in estimate;

for your information - both novodels are more in cost than its estimates ;)

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estimates means nothing;

they could have experienced with estimates anyway and as a result - placed 120 / 400 gap in estimate;

The estimate should give an approximate valuation, should it not? Even if only in relative amounts...

 

form your information - both novodels are more in cost than its estimates ;)

 

Well ... I really thought this was obvious ... ;) ... which was why I didn't mention it.

 

The question remains: Why place the higher estimate on the coin which is obviously in worse condition? :ninja:

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The question remains: Why place the higher estimate on the coin which is obviously in worse condition? :ninja:

 

I think in many instances estimates are driven by consigners and not by auction houses. I am sure you can see many of these examples in the auction catalogs lately. So - two different consigners for the beard tokens - two different estimates. And now the worse one has a big disadavntage in attracting interest.

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My question is why place a bid on a piece that is obviously not original, but struck long after the fact?

Good question ... however, it would apply to all of the novodels, not just this one! As it stands, these are acceptable collectibles with their own rarity scales ... sometimes they are much rarer than the originals!

 

Maybe 200-300 years from now people will pay a similar premium for the USA 1804 silver dollar restrikes? :ninja:

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estimates means nothing;

they could have experienced with estimates anyway and as a result - placed 120 / 400 gap in estimate;

for your information - both novodels are more in cost than its estimates :ninja:

 

As I said earlier - estimates means nothing in auction sales if the initial price is TOO FAR from recorded realized price few times higher that estimate! So the price on low estimate can be set up by a dozen of reasons! It does not matter for ex sample that 100 or 400 euro estimate looks as large gap if both can be sold anyway a well over 1000 or more.

Above explained the rest - coins estimated at 67 euro at Hoilander went up to $700-$3000 !!

Sometimes low estimates let auction houses bring more bidders !

Now from prospective buyer view, of course, that is the one, who needs to do a homework and know what he is buying in spite what auction house list it and estimate it, less or more !

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The question remains: Why place the higher estimate on the coin which is obviously in worse condition? :ninja:

 

I think it might be because the one with the higher estimate is struck in silver, while the one in nicer shape is in copper.

 

I believe they are considerably rarer in silver than copper.

 

There are parallels with medals where you can find an EF copper strike of a given medal for a few hundred dollars, but an EF silver version of the same medal costs a few thousand. And a gold version multiples of the silver price.

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As I said earlier - estimates means nothing in auction sales if the initial price is TOO FAR from recorded realized price few times higher that estimate! So the price on low estimate can be set up by a dozen of reasons! It does not matter for ex sample that 100 or 400 euro estimate looks as large gap if both can be sold anyway a well over 1000 or more.

Above explained the rest - coins estimated at 67 euro at Hoilander went up to $700-$3000 !!

Sometimes low estimates let auction houses bring more bidders !

Now from prospective buyer view, of course, that is the one, who needs to do a homework and know what he is buying in spite what auction house list it and estimate it, less or more !

 

I probably have an answer even it differs from others.

As of today only few auction houses keep aproximate estimates on coins - the most houses trying to lower the initial prices so more prospective buyers start bidding with their competition/confedence to win.

For example - MiM - brings about approximate sale prices, they do not play "ruletka" these years.

As I have mentioned earlier - Hoilander best and favor estimate prices are 34, 67 and 101 euro going up to thousands after sale ends ! Right ? Is there a difference between common coin and R1 but estimate same at 34 euro ?

Or not so rare coins but in perfect condition estimated same at 101 euro but found buyers at 180 and 700 euro? Isn't it a sample what is obvious? There is no surprise in initial question posted here : "if auction house messed up an estimate price for copper and silver novodel" - last few years thousands of coins being sold but were estimated at a price auction house wants to !! :ninja:

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I think it might be because the one with the higher estimate is struck in silver, while the one in nicer shape is in copper.

 

I believe they are considerably rarer in silver than copper.

 

There are parallels with medals where you can find an EF copper strike of a given medal for a few hundred dollars, but an EF silver version of the same medal costs a few thousand. And a gold version multiples of the silver price.

You are right ... I completely overlooked the "AR" in the auction description! :ninja:

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I think it might be because the one with the higher estimate is struck in silver, while the one in nicer shape is in copper.

 

I believe they are considerably rarer in silver than copper.

 

There are parallels with medals where you can find an EF copper strike of a given medal for a few hundred dollars, but an EF silver version of the same medal costs a few thousand. And a gold version multiples of the silver price.

 

I made my earlier comment without looking at the auction catalog. Yes, it makes sense now, since they are in different metals. Even though I still stand by my comment for the cases were coins are the same.

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I made my earlier comment without looking at the auction catalog. Yes, it makes sense now, since they are in different metals. Even though I still stand by my comment for the cases were coins are the same.

Thank you, Igor. Your comments here are consistently courteous, helpful and informative. :ninja:

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I made my earlier comment without looking at the auction catalog. Yes, it makes sense now, since they are in different metals. Even though I still stand by my comment for the cases were coins are the same.

 

Did not want to butt in earlier, but I think silver is way more rare than copper?...

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Did not want to butt in earlier, but I think silver is way more rare than copper?...

 

 

I do not think there were original silver beard tokens minted - only Novodels. It's been awhile since I looked at my books, though.

However, for a novodel its condition is very weak. Interesting enough : who could have ever used a silver Novodel beard token ?? :ninja:

 

Another thing is that these "coins" are marked as R-R3 by most catalogs, however, if you look at most recent major auctions I do not think you will find many w/o these tokens.

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I do not think there were original silver beard tokens minted - only Novodels. It's been awhile since I looked at my books, though.

However, for a novodel its condition is very weak. Interesting enough : who could have ever used a silver Novodel beard token ?? :ninja:

 

Another thing is that these "coins" are marked as R-R3 by most catalogs, however, if you look at most recent major auctions I do not think you will find many w/o these tokens.

 

Both of these are novodels. Silver novodels are not in most catalogs. They never used to come up for sale, but all is upside-down now. As for auction appearance of rare material recently, you should blame the high prices. Take a look at the upcoming Kunker. They have: Ploushkas of 1799 em, 1800 em. They also have a 1 kop 1810 em nm. This last coin was only sold 2 times before. 1 -- Tolstoy sale. 2 - Znak a few years ago. Now, there is the third specimen. Thus, we have 1 sale in the whole of 20th century, and already 2 sales in the past 3 years. And the century has only just began... So, what does it mean to you? Must be a common coin I guess :-)

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Both of these are novodels. Silver novodels are not in most catalogs. They never used to come up for sale, but all is upside-down now. As for auction appearance of rare material recently, you should blame the high prices. Take a look at the upcoming Kunker. They have: Ploushkas of 1799 em, 1800 em. They also have a 1 kop 1810 em nm. This last coin was only sold 2 times before. 1 -- Tolstoy sale. 2 - Znak a few years ago. Now, there is the third specimen. Thus, we have 1 sale in the whole of 20th century, and already 2 sales in the past 3 years. And the century has only just began... So, what does it mean to you? Must be a common coin I guess :-)

Agree with the reason the rare stuff appears these days.

But if you think about the SILVER BEARD TOKEN - it sounds more like a fantasy piece than a novodel since there was no original silver tokens. Anyway, it is good that we can see now some interesting exemplars.

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Both of these are novodels. Silver novodels are not in most catalogs. They never used to come up for sale, but all is upside-down now. As for auction appearance of rare material recently, you should blame the high prices. Take a look at the upcoming Kunker. They have: Ploushkas of 1799 em, 1800 em. They also have a 1 kop 1810 em nm. This last coin was only sold 2 times before. 1 -- Tolstoy sale. 2 - Znak a few years ago. Now, there is the third specimen. Thus, we have 1 sale in the whole of 20th century, and already 2 sales in the past 3 years. And the century has only just began... So, what does it mean to you? Must be a common coin I guess :-)

 

that's the way to lead and hunt for real rarities, bravo BKB :ninja:

 

this morning you misleaded me on Tolstoy jeton - it is issued to him as he is as a governer not a numismatist ;)

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that's the way to lead and hunt for real rarities, bravo BKB :ninja:

 

this morning you misleaded me on Tolstoy jeton - it is issued to him as he is as a governer not a numismatist ;)

 

That medal is very rare. One was sold on Ebay a few years back.

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That medal is very rare. One was sold on Ebay a few years back.

 

everything is rare when it comes to Tolstoy, but I better stick to his jetons as he is a numismatist :ninja:

any information on Kunker catalog (hardbound or cardbound), thank you

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that's the way to lead and hunt for real rarities, bravo BKB :ninja:

 

this morning you misleaded me on Tolstoy jeton - it is issued to him as he is as a governer not a numismatist ;)

 

Sorry sir, but you had mislead yourself. I read the legend on the medal to you over the phone. But, as usual, you chose not to listen. :-)

 

To IgorS: is that what I think it is on Kunker? (Nicholas I)

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Sorry sir, but you had mislead yourself. I read the legend on the medal to you over the phone. But, as usual, you chose not to listen. :-)

 

To IgorS: is that what I think it is on Kunker? (Nicholas I)

how you can possible remember what you said to me over a phone if i am very carefull listener once something is related to Rossika :ninja:

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how you can possible remember what you said to me over a phone if i am very carefull listener once something is related to Rossika :ninja:

 

Now, what does this mean?! "How can you remember ... if I am very careful listener" -- faulty logic. I can remember because I have a very good memory, as you know. You did not hear me, because you like to hear yourself speak. :-)

 

To Igors: Ok. But just as beautiful.

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