1781 grivenik with countermark

[siluska]

just came as a new aquisiton to the shop i'm working.

as a legend, when i was at my beginings, head but never for sure that they circulated during the napoleonic wars in the territory occupied by the russian army in saxony and so one...

i am sure that thats not true but it was a nice legend... but the coin is real...

[one-kuna]

just came as a new aquisiton to the shop i'm working.

as a legend, when i was at my beginings, head but never for sure that they circulated during the napoleonic wars in the territory occupied by the russian army in saxony and so one...

i am sure that thats not true but it was a nice legend... but the coin is real...

something is wrong in your story with Catherine II(1762-1796) coin;

the war with Napoleon was back to 1812, passed the Paul I 1796-1801 rules

and during Alexander I ruling 1801-1825

[siluska]

something is wrong in your story with Catherine II(1762-1796) coin;

the war with Napoleon was back to 1812, passed the Paul I 1796-1801 rules

and during Alexander I ruling 1801-1825

yes i know... but told you that i don think.

yet i think that the Catherine coins alos circulated for a time after 1796. and in some cases, the countermarks are a signt of keeping them into circulation.

[one-kuna]

yes i know... but told you that i don think.

yet i think that the Catherine coins alos circulated for a time after 1796. and in some cases, the countermarks are a signt of keeping them into circulation.

 

it sounds somekind of absurd!

coming through the Paul I monetary reform with its complexities,

and then being in circulating about 12 years during Alexander I -

this story does not cost a penny against proof historical documentations on two monetary reforms

[grivna1726]

it sounds somekind of absurd!

coming through the Paul I monetary reform with its complexities,

and then being in circulating about 12 years during Alexander I -

this story does not cost a penny against proof historical documentations on two monetary reforms

I'm not sure why you find it so absurd.

 

Many circulated Catherine II coins have survived to the present day, with and without countermarks.

 

If the coin was of known good silver, why would anyone refuse to accept it based on its intrinsic value, even outside Russia?

[one-kuna]

I'm not sure why you find it so absurd.

 

Many circulated Catherine II coins have survived to the present day, with and without countermarks.

 

If the coin was of known good silver, why would anyone refuse to accept it based on its intrinsic value, even outside Russia?

This is what somekind of "original legend "says:

 

"they circulated during the napoleonic wars in the territory occupied by the russian army in saxony" - correct?

 

Now, what I think is that before to take this question it requeres to review the history of Napoleonic war with Russians, especially pay attention to the facts that where and how much provisionings both Armies had, how Moscow was devasteted and left to Napoleon, how the Russian Civil Troops started being formed, ent., after all - Russian Army started to lead and somehow according the above legend Russian Government found somewhere these and others(?) silver coins and sent them to Prussia to be in circulating? That's is bull !

What I think is that as once such unknown coin found today with such countemark appeared on the market, so this coin can deserve an idiotic legend from a founder so he/she can sell it with much confedence to the less knowledgeble collector.

[RW Julian]

just came as a new aquisiton to the shop i'm working.

as a legend, when i was at my beginings, head but never for sure that they circulated during the napoleonic wars in the territory occupied by the russian army in saxony and so one...

i am sure that thats not true but it was a nice legend... but the coin is real...

It is difficult to authenticate a legend but the statements you present might be true,

for the following reasons:

 

1) The Russian army was paid in Russian silver coins once it passed the frontier

during the Napoleonic wars.

 

2) The Imperial government was hard pressed to find enough silver coinage with

which to pay the troops and went to considerable lengths to find silver coins that

could be used.

 

3) Silver coins from the time of Catherine II not only circulated after 1800 but perhaps

well into the 1830s and 1840s. This would have been normal for that era. In the United

States, for example, half dollars from as early as 1795 were pulled from circulation by

collectors in the late 1850s. (In the late 1940s and early 1950s one could find U.S. silver

coins from as early as 1892 in daily use.)

 

RWJ

[grivna1726]

This is what somekind of "original legend "says:

 

"they circulated during the napoleonic wars in the territory occupied by the russian army in saxony" - correct?

 

Now, what I think is that before to take this question it requeres to review the history of Napoleonic war with Russians, especially pay attention to the facts that where and how much provisionings both Armies had, how Moscow was devasteted and left to Napoleon, how the Russian Civil Troops started being formed, ent., after all - Russian Army started to lead and somehow according the above legend Russian Government found somewhere these and others(?) silver coins and sent them to Prussia to be in circulating? That's is bull !

What I think is that as once such unknown coin found today with such countemark appeared on the market, so this coin can deserve an idiotic legend from a founder so he/she can sell it with much confedence to the less knowledgeble collector.

Thank you for your reply.

 

In the days when money was considered to be gold and silver only, people would likely accept coins of known weight and fineness, no matter where they originated.

 

A look into the tills of merchants in New York or Boston in the early days of the US would have found coins from Mexico, England, Portugal, France, Germany, the Netherlands and maybe even Russia. Specie of any known type would have been gladly accepted, even if it originated from a minor and relatively unknown mint located in Philadelphia.

 

I do not know what foreign coins circulated in Saxony during the Napoleonic war, but my guess is that, especially in wartime, virtually any form of hard money would have been gladly accepted.

 

Whether this coin circulated there or not, I do not know. However, I don't see where anyone said that these were placed in circulation there by the Russian government. The countermark is likely of private origin, and might well have been applied to coins of different countries as some sort of validation stamp for local circulation, just as foreign silver coins were chopmarked by merchants in China.

 

I do not know the origin of this countermark. It looks somewhat Germanic in its style to me, although it might have come from virtually anywhere.

 

Did it circulate in Saxony during Russian occupation? The odds are probably against it, but I don't know that it can be completely ruled out given the limited information available.

[one-kuna]

Thank you for your reply.

 

In the days when money was considered to be gold and silver only, people would likely accept coins of known weight and fineness, no matter where they originated.

 

A look into the tills of merchants in New York or Boston in the early days of the US would have found coins from Mexico, England, Portugal, France, Germany, the Netherlands and maybe even Russia. Specie of any known type would have been gladly accepted, even if it originated from a minor and relatively unknown mint located in Philadelphia.

 

I do not know what foreign coins circulated in Saxony during the Napoleonic war, but my guess is that, especially in wartime, virtually any form of hard money would have been gladly accepted.

 

Whether this coin circulated there or not, I do not know. However, I don't see where anyone said that these were placed in circulation there by the Russian government. The countermark is likely of private origin, and might well have been applied to coins of different countries as some sort of validation stamp for local circulation, just as foreign silver coins were chopmarked by merchants in China.

 

I do not know the origin of this countermark. It looks somewhat Germanic in its style to me, although it might have come from virtually anywhere.

 

Did it circulate in Saxony during Russian occupation? The odds are probably against it, but I don't know that it can be completely ruled out given the limited information available.

 

Because grivna1726 & RWJ both use "might be" and "possible" it does not mean that it can be a true at all !

We are talking about of provisioning of Russian Army !

The statements what you present both have no background relating to coutermark coin (apperead only one) being in Prussia during Russia-French War.

You probably both forgot of Napoleonic paper counterfeits which are very well known and described in numismatic literature !

Let me remind you also that for Russians, Patriotic War of 1812 was, is and always will be the most respectable example of Victory in Russian history. As a result so many NUMISMATIC WORKS were issued when celebtaring anniversary back 1912, and so many memorablia issued dedicated to 1812 - 1912. Even not that, the most prominent numismatists used to live in 1912 and NO ONE, NO WHERE, NEVER mentioned so interesting theory on idiotic countermark what grivna1726&RWJ propose ("migt be", "possible") be close to be true! Kopylov in his periodic Staraya Moneta 1912-1914 would have mentioned that if true.

I trust Kopylov! and others few dozens !

I do not trust comparation posted here between newly found contermark coin never known - to the american history, there is nothing to compare even similar, that is another bull.

Because you both somehow support this legend with countemark coin, or you are both trying to catch me on some words - do you know the result, - one day this coin will be auctioned as a real with your "possible truly story" !

Breack time Gentlemen !

P.S. Read Leo Tolstoy War & Peace.

[bobh]

It is difficult to authenticate a legend but the statements you present might be true,

for the following reasons:

 

1) The Russian army was paid in Russian silver coins once it passed the frontier

during the Napoleonic wars.

 

2) The Imperial government was hard pressed to find enough silver coinage with

which to pay the troops and went to considerable lengths to find silver coins that

could be used.

 

3) Silver coins from the time of Catherine II not only circulated after 1800 but perhaps

well into the 1830s and 1840s. This would have been normal for that era. In the United

States, for example, half dollars from as early as 1795 were pulled from circulation by

collectors in the late 1850s. (In the late 1940s and early 1950s one could find U.S. silver

coins from as early as 1892 in daily use.)

 

RWJ

Only last year they found a Catherine II rouble upon digging up a field on farm land in Switzerland, close to Winterthur. It was stated that a Russian soldier (who were known to be in that region during the Napoleonic war) must have lost it there, and that indeed Russian soldiers were paid with Russian money also in foreign territory. It was actually in pretty nice condition, good VF or XF at least, if the photos shown in the newspapers were accurate.

[one-kuna]

Only last year they found a Catherine II rouble upon digging up a field on farm land in Switzerland, close to Winterthur. It was stated that a Russian soldier (who were known to be in that region during the Napoleonic war) must have lost it there, and that indeed Russian soldiers were paid with Russian money also in foreign territory. It was actually in pretty nice condition, good VF or XF at least, if the photos shown in the newspapers were accurate.

 

above story costs nothing !

 

I would consider credible facts if you read German and can demonstate some citations from historians who wrote memoirs on that period of time where Russian Army stayed there and used some coinage - there are dozens authors - that I would consider as a credible facts !

Cannot read & understand German !

Otherwise - some stories like that is another bull to support unknown countermark.

[alexbq2]

I doubt that the counterstamp was done by the russian government. And we cannot know how that coin got to the west. It could have just gotten there through trade or tourism. Lets not forget that Russian troops were in Prussia at the end of the reign of Catherine The Great, so this mystery will go unsolved.

 

As to the circulation of old coin within Russia, I recall reading in the prefaces to the Russian catalogs, published at the turn of the 20th century, that indeed old coins could be fished out of change. It seems that a lot of old coins would end up in the poor boxes at churches. In fact Petrov reminisces looking through buckets of old copper coin while doing some restoration work at a church in his youth, another coin guide advertised itself to cashiers, who would handle the old coins without realizing that some of them are valuable.

 

So it seems that the numerous monetary reforms of the imperial government, were much gentler on the population than all subsequent reforms undertaken by the following governments.

[RW Julian]

For those interested in learning of the monies paid to the Russian army after

crossing the frontier, there is a book which covers the matter in detail (among

many other matters of course). The writer was present in St. Petersburg,

visiting the Mint and discussing the situation with various persons:

 

James, J.T. Journal of a Tour in Germany, Sweden, Russia, Poland, During the

Years 1813 and 1814. Two volumes, London 1816.

 

James does not discuss the pay of the army inside Russia but it may be assumed

that it was partly or mostly in assignats. He also discussed the domestic use of

silver coinage in 1813 and 1814.

 

It was normal for foreign coins to be countermarked for domestic circulation and this

was widely done in the 19th century.

 

The U.S. examples are relevant because they show that coins remained in use for

decades when there was no reason to remove them from daily use. This was true in

most European countries, including Russia, during that era.

 

The changes in standard made under Paul and Alexander would have had no effect

on silver coin circulation because the intrinsic values, except for the abortive 1797

coinage, remained roughly the same from 1762 to 1860. Gold was of course another

matter.

 

RWJ

[one-kuna]

For those interested in learning of the monies paid to the Russian army after

crossing the frontier, there is a book which covers the matter in detail (among

many other matters of course). The writer was present in St. Petersburg,

visiting the Mint and discussing the situation with various persons:

 

James, J.T. Journal of a Tour in Germany, Sweden, Russia, Poland, During the

Years 1813 and 1814. Two volumes, London 1816.

 

James does not discuss the pay of the army inside Russia but it may be assumed

that it was partly or mostly in assignats. He also discussed the domestic use of

silver coinage in 1813 and 1814 as well.

 

It was normal for foreign coins to be countermarked for domestic circulation and this

was widely done in the 19th century.

 

The U.S. examples are relevant because they show that coins remained in use for

decades when there was no reason to remove them from daily use. This was true in

most European countries, including Russia, during that era.

 

The changes in standard made under Paul and Alexander would have had no effect

on silver coin circulation because the intrinsic values, except for the abortive 1797

coinage, remained roughly the same from 1762 to 1860. Gold was of course another

matter.

 

RWJ

 

Bartoshevich had a book "In Struglling with Napoleon" or so large size green color text in Russian, may be someone read it from russian speaking and can bring some highliths. If there are no mentioning on coinage at all in this book - so the answer is very simple -

 

Russian Army did not use such countemark coins !

 

I trust Bartoshevich, he was most trustworth author, 100% better than his museum colleges from russian museums !

 

No one can argue here that Patriotic war of 1812 was the greatest war among other Russians involved.

 

Think for a moment now,

 

Swedish Avesta piatak issues in war with Russians a little earlier than 1812 very well known & described in world history !

 

Turkish war with Russian Army became in finding and issuing Moldova-Wallachian coinage !

 

Russian-French war, Napoleonic war of 1812, or Patriotic war brought widest materials on Napoleonic counterfeit assignats !

 

With all my facts here and earlier notes - the numismatic history should have known some facts of such circulated coinage.

 

The reason why we do not have it -

 

 

Russian Army did not use such countemark coins !

 

We can all wish it should be - but it was not until some credible (!!!!!!!!!!!!) proofs appear.

[grivna1726]

Because grivna1726 & RWJ both use "might be" and "possible" it does not mean that it can be a true at all !

We are talking about of provisioning of Russian Army !

The statements what you present both have no background relating to coutermark coin (apperead only one) being in Prussia during Russia-French War.

You probably both forgot of Napoleonic paper counterfeits which are very well known and described in numismatic literature !

Let me remind you also that for Russians, Patriotic War of 1812 was, is and always will be the most respectable example of Victory in Russian history. As a result so many NUMISMATIC WORKS were issued when celebtaring anniversary back 1912, and so many memorablia issued dedicated to 1812 - 1912. Even not that, the most prominent numismatists used to live in 1912 and NO ONE, NO WHERE, NEVER mentioned so interesting theory on idiotic countermark what grivna1726&RWJ propose ("migt be", "possible") be close to be true! Kopylov in his periodic Staraya Moneta 1912-1914 would have mentioned that if true.

I trust Kopylov! and others few dozens !

I do not trust comparation posted here between newly found contermark coin never known - to the american history, there is nothing to compare even similar, that is another bull.

Because you both somehow support this legend with countemark coin, or you are both trying to catch me on some words - do you know the result, - one day this coin will be auctioned as a real with your "possible truly story" !

Breack time Gentlemen !

P.S. Read Leo Tolstoy War & Peace.

Thank you for your opinion.

 

Rest assured that I am quite aware of Napoleonic counterfeits of Russian assignats and have not forgotten about them.

 

One of my regrets is that I declined to purchase a wonderful example of a Napoleonic forgery that was offered to me about 25 years ago - because I thought the asking price ($650) was "too high".

[one-kuna]

Thank you for your opinion.

 

Rest assured that I am quite aware of Napoleonic counterfeits of Russian assignats and have not forgotten about them.

 

One of my regrets is that I declined to purchase a wonderful example of a Napoleonic forgery that was offered to me about 25 years ago - because I thought the asking price ($650) was "too high".

 

I tell you more, I took from a friend of mine 5 of Napoleonic forgeries plus others Russian old banknotes, like large albums, to Spink New York office and i was asking them for consignment with estimate $450-500 for Napoleonic one and that person if you know who I mean refused to take either one ! Do not ask me where are they - they all gone a long time go.

[grivna1726]

Russian Army did not use such countemark coins !

Who said that the Russian government or that the Russian army countermarked the coin (other than you)?

 

If you read my comments again, you will see that I specifically suggested that the countermark was probably of private origin.

 

I also said I didn't see that the suggestion that the coin was used in Saxony could be ruled out because of the lack of available information.

 

If someone says that it is possible that there is life on Mars, that is not the same thing as saying that there is life on Mars. That is not a matter of "trying to catch you on some words", it is a matter of simple logic.

[RW Julian]

Bartoshevich had a book "In Struglling with Napoleon" or so large size green color text in Russian, may be someone read it from russian speaking and can bring some highliths. If there are no mentioning on coinage at all in this book - so the answer is very simple -

Russian Army did not use such countemark coins !

I trust Bartoshevich, he was most trustworth author, 100% better they his museum colleges from russian museums !

No one can argue here that Patriotic war of 1812 was the greatest war among others Russians involved.

Think for a moment now,

Swedish Avesta piatak issues in war with Russians a little earlier than 1812 very well known & described in world history !

Turkish war with Russian Army became in finding and issuing Moldova-Wallachian coinage !

Russian-French war, Napoleonic war of 1812, or Patriotic war brought widest materials on Napoleonic counterfeit assignats !

With all my facts here and earlier notes - the numismatic history should have known some facts of such circulated coinage.

The reason why we do not have it -

Russian Army did not use such countemark coins !

We can all wish it should be - but it was not until some credible (!!!!!!!!!!!!) proofs appear.

It would, I think, be more useful if one-kuna actually read what I said. I made it clear, and quoted

a reliable reference, that the Russian soldiers were paid in silver coins when they were outside

Russia. I did not say that the Russian government had countermarked the coins. The soldiers

would have spent the coins in local marketplaces as they moved west and these coins would

have been later used by the local populace. That some of them would then be countermarked

for further use would be normal for that era.

 

The Napoleonic forgeries of assignats mean nothing because the soldiers were paid in silver coins.

The Swedish counterfeits and Moldavian coinage are likewise irrelevant.

 

RWJ

[one-kuna]

The Napoleonic forgeries of assignats mean nothing because the soldiers were paid in silver coins.

The Swedish counterfeits and Moldavian coinage are likewise irrelevant.

RWJ

All above your facts are documented in world history!! that is a whole point !

 

Accornding you or another source what you using here is that Russian soldiers were paid in silver ( I have never argued this one ) at Patriotic war of 1812, what the heck is that to do with such countermarked pieces what you said in the beginning of this discussion that "MIGHT BE" (see the top)? The point what I am trying to bring is that everything from big events were DOCUMENTED, DESCRIBED, COUNTED and KNOWN so far in world history & numismatic literature: how many women, ducks, pigs and chicken have been provisioned at that time; but such an important FACT like using countemark coinage to support Russian Army abroad is NOT known up to now.

I tell you what, if you bring together 50 respectable collectors from Russia plus another 50 from rest of the world (your choice) that is total of 100 and let them vote, if you win with your theory / logic - I WILL APPOLOGIZE for being argued against your and grivna1726 opinions.

If I win, you scan me that place in a book which says that soldiers were paid in silver coins which is a best proof that only coins were documented and used, nothing else, nothing might be, nothing possible in a mars.

[one-kuna]

just came as a new aquisiton to the shop i'm working.

as a legend, when i was at my beginings, head but never for sure that they circulated during the napoleonic wars in the territory occupied by the russian army in saxony and so one...

i am sure that thats not true but it was a nice legend... but the coin is real...

 

I was wondering - are there many counterfeit coins coming from China and Germany in clubs and flea-markets in Romania?

[grivna1726]

...but such an important FACT like using countemark coinage to support Russian Army abroad is NOT known up to now.

 

No-one here has said that except you.

 

I don't know why you persist in arguing against a claim that no-one has made.

 

Do you even read what people say to you?

[siluska]

I was wondering - are there many counterfeit coins coming from China and Germany in clubs and flea-markets in Romania?

i haven t see very much chinese fakes here... does this question is based on some observation about this coin? for me it looks ok.

 

as for the legend, i consider it an urban myth or much more as historical myth... i was very young when i hear it and i didnt belive it and still not yet like any story has a true part.

yet i can remember that for example a information about the general Suvorov campaign in Italy ans Switzerland story that appears in one of A. Dumas novels, in the 1840-1850s. that the soldiers of his army payed with russian silver coins( and amussed me that the author states that italians were amazed because of the czarine large and almost nude bust....)

[bobh]

above story costs nothing !

 

I would consider credible facts if you read German and can demonstate some citations from historians who wrote memoirs on that period of time where Russian Army stayed there and used some coinage - there are dozens authors - that I would consider as a credible facts !

Cannot read & understand German !

Otherwise - some stories like that is another bull to support unknown countermark.

Пожалуйста, здесь можно прочитать о том по-русски:

Хранить деньги в Швейцарии

 

And for German readers:

Katharina die Grosse in Ossingen

 

Admittedly, General Suworov never got close to the canton of Zurich, although they did cross the Alps. And this coin has nothing to do with countermarks. Also, the sources for the article agree that "it can only be speculated" as to how the coin got into the field. But uniform buttons and such things have been found in the past, so there were some Russian soldiers there at the time.

 

This is all I know, so I will leave it to others to decide whether it is on topic or not! Nevertheless, it is an interesting story (and true! You can see the coin in the museum "Münzkabinett" in Winterthur).

[one-kuna]

No-one here has said that except you.

 

I don't know why you persist in arguing against a claim that no-one has made.

 

Do you even read what people say to you?

 

You the one who said it first.

 

<<<<<just came as a new aquisiton to the shop i'm working.

as a legend, when i was at my beginings, head but never for sure that they circulated during the napoleonic wars in the territory occupied by the russian army in saxony and so one...

i am sure that thats not true but it was a nice legend... but the coin is real... >>>>>

 

on above story which I said that it is absurd - YOU SAID IT THAT <<<I'm not sure why you find it so absurd.>>>

 

Then I referenced to few HISTORICAL FACTS that it is unknow what Russian Army used for circulation besides silver coins and what you said - NOTHING AT ALL - and multiple "IF" and "MY GUESS" and "POSSIBLE" and "I DO NOT KNOW" and "I AM NOT SURE" - present you as the one to keep a dialog with no background.

You did not reference anything because you have NONE. Only your own imagination and possibilities.

Before I go to a next paragraph let me touch this one <Do you read what other people say to you> this your form of presentation and respect! What "other" is that only one more, and two of you who have nothing to argue of.

You do not have both any facts and documentations to support your theory which does not make any common sense!

What you said both grivna1726&RWJ is a MYPH, as this story on countermark coin.

[one-kuna]

Пожалуйста, здесь можно прочитать о том по-русски:

Хранить деньги в Швейцарии

 

And for German readers:

Katharina die Grosse in Ossingen

 

Admittedly, General Suworov never got close to the canton of Zurich, although they did cross the Alps. And this coin has nothing to do with countermarks. Also, the sources for the article agree that "it can only be speculated" as to how the coin got into the field. But uniform buttons and such things have been found in the past, so there were some Russian soldiers there at the time.

 

This is all I know, so I will leave it to others to decide whether it is on topic or not! Nevertheless, it is an interesting story (and true! You can see the coin in the museum "Münzkabinett" in Winterthur).

 

Thank you so much for above story.

It is always interesting when coin(s) found, especially a hoard with coins. Hundreds of hoards found in Russia. Each find is a big event and usually goes to a local newspaper and journal.