How is your legalese?

[Vfox]

I found a link that describes basically everything about the laws regarding counterfeits. It's interesting however that a clause of "with the intend to defraud" is listed on basically all the laws. If I am reading that correctly, it is legal to own counterfeits as long as you don't try to give them away, or sell them, or ever let them leave your possession without proper markings in the coins surface. It seems odd, how is my legalese? Lol.

 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/usc...10_I_20_25.html

[thedeadpoint]

Interesting! thanks for showing us that, V!

[one-kuna]

I found a link that describes basically everything about the laws regarding counterfeits. It's interesting however that a clause of "with the intend to defraud" is listed on basically all the laws. If I am reading that correctly, it is legal to own counterfeits as long as you don't try to give them away, or sell them, or ever let them leave your possession without proper markings in the coins surface. It seems odd, how is my legalese? Lol.

 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/usc...10_I_20_25.html

 

Yes, thank you so much for these links!

 

Now,

 

To scenarios:

 

Let's say that one auction house accept fake coin and trying to sell it; then what paragraph is appropriate to this action?

 

And let's say e-bay seller now is trying to sell fake coin; does same paragraph apply to a seller?

[Vfox]

Well http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/usc...92----000-.html states you should just turn any counterfeit into the government, but that pesky "without willful negligence or without any intention on the part of the petitioner to violate the law" exists in this one as well.

 

And then http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/usc...85----000-.html covers coin importation but again has the phrase that you will be fined if you import, utter, pass "with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person".

 

So basically all of the law titles have the same clause in it in one way or another. However the law would fall on the seller to not attempt to sell a counterfeit coin as a counterfeit or as a legitimate coin. If you own a counterfeit, you can never sell, trade, or give it away legally. However, if you die and your estate is auctioned the auction house cannot technically be held responsible because they may be unaware that such a coin is counterfeit. (The whole willingly defraud clause again) Then again, once it is discovered to be counterfeit, it should be handed over to the authorities and whatnot.

[one-kuna]

Well http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/usc...92----000-.html states you should just turn any counterfeit into the government, but that pesky "without willful negligence or without any intention on the part of the petitioner to violate the law" exists in this one as well.

 

And then http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/usc...85----000-.html covers coin importation but again has the phrase that you will be fined if you import, utter, pass "with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person".

 

So basically all of the law titles have the same clause in it in one way or another. However the law would fall on the seller to not attempt to sell a counterfeit coin as a counterfeit or as a legitimate coin. If you own a counterfeit, you can never sell, trade, or give it away legally. However, if you die and your estate is auctioned the auction house cannot technically be held responsible because they may be unaware that such a coin is counterfeit. (The whole willingly defraud clause again) Then again, once it is discovered to be counterfeit, it should be handed over to the authorities and whatnot.

in plain english does it mean that auction house must check what it accepting /buying for auctioning

wifully or not and who is responsibility after an auction: grade company who graded coin as a fake or auction house who sold it?

thank you on advance

[Gopher]

The wording I believe is knowingly. A reputable auction house WILL return the price if a fake is discovered. If not, they will not be in business for long.

[one-kuna]

The wording I believe is knowingly. A reputable auction house WILL return the price if a fake is discovered. If not, they will not be in business for long.

I am not concern about returns. Why an auction house accept fakes. As someone here said that an auction house does not check it, or do not have time to check it, or not suppose to check slab coins - but as a result - all suffering including auction house. But you see, some people skip this important stage of giving a second life to fake coins leting auction house a break.

Well, they can always return a money for sold fakes. But how about the damages? Or numismatics is not about making dollars for houses ? It is a business, so it a must be responsible if some one go with damages against them.

[Vfox]

in plain english does it mean that auction house must check what it accepting /buying for auctioning

wifully or not and who is responsibility after an auction: grade company who graded coin as a fake or auction house who sold it?

thank you on advance

 

Well, let me start by saying I in no way can give legal advice, I can only give my opinion.

 

Most grading (the big 3 certainly will) companies would refund all fees if they accidentally graded a counterfeit coin. It is likely however that a professional coin attributer or grading analysis representative would never accept a counterfeit to be slabbed. (For one, Chinese counterfeits have tell-tale signs in hand) Under a 5x loupe, almost any modern counterfeit coming from China, the Middle East, or South America can be identified as such by a professional.

 

The biggest problem are the raw coins being sent to auction houses that are not experts in numismatics. I would be fairly convinced that these auction houses likely have a sold "as is" policy for ungraded coins. Which means, if it is a counterfeit, too bad for you. Now, you can call the authorities and have your newly purchased counterfeit coin seized, the auction house investigated, and likely no money will be returned to you. However, if the auction house feigns ignorance, it is likely they will not get fined, or anyone arrested, they will simply have to give up the coin.

 

Ultimately though, it comes down to you, the purchaser. Know what you're buying, and if it turns out it's fake, return it and let it known here what it was, where it came from, and anything else like nice photos for our site to have.

 

I got a counterfeit 8 reale last year. It was very deceptive, and if I didn't know how to cast silver to make jewelry, I probably wouldn't have figured out that it was a cast silver counterfeit. However, I returned it for a full refund. Afterwards the seller tried selling it again as a legitimate coin, I reported him, and he was removed from ebay.

[one-kuna]

Well, let me start by saying I in no way can give legal advice, I can only give my opinion.

 

Most grading (the big 3 certainly will) companies would refund all fees if they accidentally graded a counterfeit coin. It is likely however that a professional coin attributer or grading analysis representative would never accept a counterfeit to be slabbed. (For one, Chinese counterfeits have tell-tale signs in hand) Under a 5x loupe, almost any modern counterfeit coming from China, the Middle East, or South America can be identified as such by a professional.

 

The biggest problem are the raw coins being sent to auction houses that are not experts in numismatics. I would be fairly convinced that these auction houses likely have a sold "as is" policy for ungraded coins. Which means, if it is a counterfeit, too bad for you. Now, you can call the authorities and have your newly purchased counterfeit coin seized, the auction house investigated, and likely no money will be returned to you. However, if the auction house feigns ignorance, it is likely they will not get fined, or anyone arrested, they will simply have to give up the coin.

 

Ultimately though, it comes down to you, the purchaser. Know what you're buying, and if it turns out it's fake, return it and let it known here what it was, where it came from, and anything else like nice photos for our site to have.

 

I got a counterfeit 8 reale last year. It was very deceptive, and if I didn't know how to cast silver to make jewelry, I probably wouldn't have figured out that it was a cast silver counterfeit. However, I returned it for a full refund. Afterwards the seller tried selling it again as a legitimate coin, I reported him, and he was removed from ebay.

 

Thank you so much for reply.

Of course I am not asking for prrof legal advise.

I just want to review this stage that auction houses can do better.

Well I am in numismatic not a first day, year, and decade; the reason what I am concern is that some people are looking for sellers of fake coins and anothers trying to recognized fake coins already slabbed, but auction houses took a neutral position I think - they are not really do much about that and if something come up they simply ready to return funds with no court issues. Once fakes are beeing accepting for consignments/or bought by auction house, then it is held before auction starts, then being sold/unsold, and if sold - have a second life for another buyer unless it found as a fake. I think, whoever looking for fake helping the safe numismatics shoud find some approches to fine very much auction houses so they can be more carefully when take coins from public and auction to public.

[Vfox]

Thank you so much for reply.

Of course I am not asking for prrof legal advise.

I just want to review this stage that auction houses can do better.

Well I am in numismatic not a first day, year, and decade; the reason what I am concern is that some people are looking for sellers of fake coins and anothers trying to recognized fake coins already slabbed, but auction houses took a neutral position I think - they are not really do much about that and if something come up they simply ready to return funds with no court issues. Once fakes are beeing accepting for consignments/or bought by auction house, then it is held before auction starts, then being sold/unsold, and if sold - have a second life for another buyer unless it found as a fake. I think, whoever looking for fake helping the safe numismatics shoud find some approches to fine very much auction houses so they can be more carefully when take coins from public and auction to public.

 

 

I do agree with you on this. Auction houses did indeed take a neutral stance on counterfeit coins. I think that larger auction firms like Heritage and the like have the expertise to keep counterfeits out of their auctions; the smaller auction houses are the problem. I don't think law enforcement holds them ultimately responsible for selling counterfeits, instead they hold the consignee as responsible.

 

To me, the largest source of counterfeit coins is eBay. Ebay however does very little to control this, and allows these counterfeits to be sold as "replicas", but in reality are unmarked counterfeits. They however, have the burden of proof, if they cannot prove the coins are not marked replica or copy, their hands are technically tied. Also, because a majority of the counterfeiters are from China, and not based in the US like eBay and US law enforcement, it disallows any legal action to be taken.