1819 George III Crown

[Mat25]

 

Hello, what are peoples opinions of grade for this coin?

I can't see any wear on the coin, but there are a couple of very small scratches on the neck of the bust and one on the reverse under the L of MAL.

[YeOldeCollector]

A very warm welcome to the forum.

 

I'm a hammered collector but also like the occasional milled coin so hope I can help.

 

First of all, it is very hard to grade a coin exactly from photos as they can differ considerably.

 

However, in saying that, I'd say that this would be an aEF but that is purely my opinion but it is hard to tell from small, tilted photos.

 

What I can say though, is that this is a lovely coin. One which I would certainly wish to own. Well done on acquiring it.

[Mat25]

The more I try to understand grading the more it baffles me!

 

I would have thought it was a good EF or better as there is no wear at all, just a couple of tiny knocks.

 

But as you say it is impossible to accurately judge a coin from a photo like this.

 

Ive also recently bought two Elizabeth I sixpences, but I don't know what grade they are,

I guess that one is a good fine and the other VF.

I don't suppose you could help me with that in any way could you?

[YeOldeCollector]

Hammered coins are my favourite!

 

Sure, feel free to email me; Clive@HistoricCoinage.com

[Ætheling]

Actually Mat I would have to concur with you, I'd grade that at least GEF. A few knocks on the obverse field but it could slide to AUNC. I have seen coins of this calibre described as AUNC by some dealers. I tend to grade down though so GEF.

[Mat25]

Hello, thanks for your reply.

 

Yes, ive also seen a few George III crowns in worse condition than this graded as EF. The photos ive posted are a little unclear though, they could have done with being double the size, but this is the largest it would allow me to post.

 

Do small scratches actually detract from the grade? or do they just get mentioned as a side issue after the grade i.e. AUNC but with small scratches to the obverse?

 

As a bit of a newbie, grading is by far the most difficult thing to understand when starting out.

[Ætheling]

Ah well Mat that would depend on the dealer! There has been a move in the US to make grading more objective, third party grading and a 'standardised' (or more standardised system of grading). Grading in the UK is definately subjective (my opinion is that it still is subjective in the US as well, but that's another debate).

 

Some dealers (I can think of one I deal with regularly here) would describe your coin as 'AUNC with small knocks on obverse'. He assigns the coin a grade then any flaws/blemishes he notes at the side i.e 'GEF, holed, plugged and traces of solder'.

 

However, other dealers I deal with would grade the coin's wear first and then lower the grade for imperfections/flaws (particularly for minor imperfections they'd be inclined not to mention them but just give the coin a lower net grade, taking the edge knocks and field knocks as part of the wearing process).

 

British grading is therefore, very subjective and it really depends upon the dealer, I personally prefer the first of the two options. I'd like to know the exact amount of wear upon the design and have other imperfections listed separately, afterall edge knocks and scuffs and field knocks can occur without circulation (either against other coins in the mint bags when being transported from the mint or by clumsy collectors in the past, even though the coin might have never been in circulation. An example of this is with older proofs).

 

 

But that's just my two cents. No doubt some other Brit collectors may have a different take on it.

[Ætheling]

Here compare some of these crowns on this site, just go down to the bottom white box 'all coins listed...', select crowns and when the results come up go to page 2, there's a few Geo III crowns in similar grades to yours. Take note of the 1819 with mountmarks and the GEF/EF+ coins.

 

Crowns

[marv]

Here compare some of these crowns on this site, just go down to the bottom white box 'all coins listed...', select crowns and when the results come up go to page 2, there's a few Geo III crowns in similar grades to yours. Take note of the 1819 with mountmarks and the GEF/EF+ coins.

 

Crowns

 

It's impossible to accurately grade a coin from a picture. One has to take into account the quality of the coin's surfaces, not just the apparent wear or lack thereof on the devices, and an accurate evaluation of the surfaces cannot be made from a picture. Luster is one of the most important characteristics of an uncirculated coin. It is formed by the presence of microscopic metal flow lines caused by the pressure of the die upon the planchet. These lines are the most sensitive indicator of wear, and once gone in any particular spot, the coin cannot be considered to be uncirculated. In order to judge whether a coin is uncirculated, the coin must be observed in a good light, and the luster must be evaulated first to determine whether the coin is uncirculated. Once that determination is made, then the quality of the surfaces, i.e., bag marks, hairlines from cleaning, etc. can be used to come to a final determination as to whether the coin is a particularly choice example or not. If the coin has been subjected to a particularly harsh wiping or abrasive cleaning, the luster will be gone, and though the coin might not have been circulated, it cannot be graded uncirculated but should be considered damaged. So called "whizzed" coins are good examples of that, where the coin has been attacked with a wire brush, and at first glance appears very shiny, but in actuality the luster is gone and the coin's surfaces will exhibit many, many fine hairlines from the whizzing process.

 

Several of the supposed "choice uncirculated" Geo. III 1818, 1819 crowns on the onlinecoins.co.uk site appear to have evident hairlines, and the 1819 "choice uncirculated" seems to exhibit wear on the chin and other high points of the protrait. Human nature being what it is, in many cases, interested parties tend to exaggerate the grade of their coins, and this is the reason that third party grading came into being.

 

Before I would buy a coin online from a picture, and not a very good one at that, I would spend the time to learn about coin grading and view third party-graded samples from NGC or PCGS at a coin show or at a reputable dealers shop and discuss the reasons that a particular coin is graded the way it is. Then, if you choose to buy raw coins, once you know how to grade, at least do business with someone who will allow you to return the coin. Remember, there are no "deals" in coins. A truely choice uncirculated coin can be sold to anyone for strong money, and no one will give you a "deal" since he/she can sell it for top dollar. If you can afford only lower graded coins, that's fine, as long as you know what you're getting, and get what you pay for.

 

I might add that the foregoing applies most strongly to machine struck coinage. Hammered coinage presents a whole spectrum of other issues and most definitely, in my opinion, should be graded by an expert, especially if the coin is expensive.

[Ætheling]

Proves my point really, grading is subjective. As a seller you are likely to grade up as a buyer you are likely to grade down.

 

As a hammered collector by nature I tend to concentrate more on strike, wear on portrait and good clear legends rather than lustre or hairlines, but that's only because nearly all hammered coins have been cleaned (in one way or another) and lustre is seldom seen.

 

 

In the UK we don't have Grading Services, all coins are raw, except the small handful of examples that come from the USA and they are too few and far between to compare and contrast with any raw coin you might want to buy.

[marv]

In the UK we don't have Grading Services, all coins are raw, except the small handful of examples that come from the USA and they are too few and far between to compare and contrast with any raw coin you might want to buy.

 

Then novice collectors should visit a respected dealer to learn how and why coins are graded. I know in the US, at some of the large shows, there are also classes run by the American Numismatic Association that deal with grading concepts. I would imagine that there are similar events at your larger shows. These larger shows also attract many highly respected dealers who might allow one to spend some time looking at their offerings and discussing the reasons for their grades.

 

The idea is to accumulate knowledge before you accumulate coins - not the other way around.

[YeOldeCollector]

In the UK we don't have Grading Services...

 

 

Unfortunately we do. It is in the form of CGS UK.

 

I loathe the idea of encasing coins in plastic coffins and subjecting them to be graded by a stranger but, alas, it has finally come to the UK.

[NumisMattic2200]

The photo isn't sharp enough to show if there's any wear to the coin, so I'd assume it was a British EF+.

 

That's my first assessment. There are pits and a few small scratches, which detract value from a 'perfect' EF+.

[Ætheling]

Well that just goes to show me then Clive! I've been out of numismatic circles since early 2006!

 

I'm 50/50 on what I think about slabbing. In one way I like the fact that the slab is a nice little environment that protects the coin (to varying degrees) from the environment. In another way I hate it cos I like to handle my coins and because it's commercialising (like everything these days I suppose).

 

Still at least in the future it'll help stop relations from polishing their late grandfathers' coins before they attempt to sell them!

[Ætheling]

Well Marv that's kinda how I learned. I had a somewhat mixed education in coins, for the first ten years I just bought coins from trusted dealers and I looked in the Seaby Guide and kinda worked it out for myself.

 

These last ten years (on and off) i've visited a lot of coin shop and fairs purposely to look at high grade specimens to see how they look in top grades so that I know what a good one looks like. A lot of my coin education has been 'fieldwork' rather than 'bookwork'.

[Art Salmons]

I think it's one fantastic looking coin

[Mat25]

I rephotographed the coin as the previous images weren't great.

 

[Art Salmons]

I think it's a great looking coin also but I can't grade it as I'm used to the USA grading on US coins and the whole British grading system is new to me.

 

On the certified coin issue I totally hated it and I used to break the coins out and put them in Dansco albums. Then in 2008 I started putting together some registry sets and those I leave in the slabs of course. On coins I buy that are certified and not in registry sets I still break them out of the slab.