Fake Carolus IV 8 reale?

[crhunter]

I found this coin metal detecting and cleaned it up with salt and vinegar (I know you guys probably hate for people to clean their finds because it hurts the value). After half an hour, i ended up with a completely new looking coin. The thing about this coin is that it came out of the ground a very strange color for silver and the date and the a in gratia are way off of where they are supposed to be located. Is this coin a mint error, a counterfeit, or neither? I feel like the coin might have corroded because the coin doesn't have the usual silver content due to counterfeiting. Here are the before and after pictures

[crhunter]

Here's the cleaned up version

[thedeadpoint]

Welcome to CP, crhunter. Where did you find the coin? I don't know much about it but maybe it's a contemporary counterfeit - a counterfeit made close to the date on the coin vs a counterfeit made today.

[crhunter]

I found it at an old home site that was around until around 1870. I am thinking that this coin was an early attempt at a counterfeit. If you look at a real 8 reale, the date is also separated by a larger distance from the head. Also, although I didn't post the back, the mint mark (that's what I think it is anyway) says T.M. However, on all other 8 reales the mint mark seems to say F.M. Do any of you know what T.M. means or is it another error

[crhunter]

Decided to post the back

 

Here's the Before

[crhunter]

The after

[thedeadpoint]

The top half of the right column on the reverse looks porous. I think that implies it was casted.

[crhunter]

So in layman terms what does this mean? Also, would you say this adds or subtracts from the collectibility of the coin? I personally think it is cool that I found a coin that may have been made through counterfeiting. Sorry, but one more question. What % of silver do you think was used on this coin? Obviously it seems to have less silver, because it came out of the ground a very unusual color.

[grivna1726]

I found it at an old home site that was around until around 1870. I am thinking that this coin was an early attempt at a counterfeit. If you look at a real 8 reale, the date is also separated by a larger distance from the head. Also, although I didn't post the back, the mint mark (that's what I think it is anyway) says T.M. However, on all other 8 reales the mint mark seems to say F.M. Do any of you know what T.M. means or is it another error

TM and FM are assayer's initials.

 

The "M" with the small "o" on top is the mintmark for Mexico City.

[Vfox]

I am not familiar with the T.M. assayer marks however. I've never seen that combination, during the period of 1803-1810 the Mexico City assayer mark was T.H., not T.M.

 

I will have to assume this is a counterfeit, likely a contemporary example. Do you have a picture of the side edge of the coin? Also the weight?

[grivna1726]

TM and FM are assayer's initials.

 

The "M" with the small "o" on top is the mintmark for Mexico City.

I'd like to add that the date seems unusually crowded and shifted from its usual position.

 

Silver is chemically active, so corrosion from being in the ground does not seem unusual to me.

 

I don't collect these coins, so I don't know if the coin is a legitimate variety or a fake. Spanish colonial silver was legal tender in the US until 1857 and contemporary counterfeits were made.

 

It looks like someone scratched it to make sure that it was real silver and not just silver-plated.

[grivna1726]

I am not familiar with the T.M. assayer marks however. I've never seen that combination, during the period of 1803-1810 the Mexico City assayer mark was T.H., not T.M.

 

I will have to assume this is a counterfeit, likely a contemporary example. Do you have a picture of the side edge of the coin? Also the weight?

I read the date as 1801, although it might be 1807.

 

1801-FM is known to exist.

[crhunter]

The date is 1807. I don't have either a weight or a side view. When spring break gets over i might weigh it at school (i am still in high school and am on spring break). The side seems to have three parts to it. There is the middle with alternating squares and circles, and then there is a skinny layer on top and bottom of this. I don't know if it is unusual to be able to see all three levels or if this is common as I don't have any examples to compare it too. Thanks for the replies and hopefully the mystery will be solved.

[crhunter]

UPDATE:

 

I am very excited to finally have solved this two year old mystery. I was researching local history when I came across an interesting article. After reading the article I knew what i had unearthed. Although counterfeit, the coin now has much more historical value to me. Here is the article, sorry that it is a bit lengthy:

 

A Bogus Mexican Dollar.

 

Some time ago Postmaster J. A. Yockey and wife, of Plymouth, were

taking a vacation at the home of T. N. Peddycord, in Polk township, near

Koontz's lake. Mr. Yockey, early one morning, went to dig for worms for

bait for the day's fishing he expected to indulge in. He was digging under

an old log near the house when, in removing the decayed leaves, he turned

up a bogus Mexican dollar of the date of 1875.

 

There is quite a bit of local history connected with this and other similar

coins manufactured in that place many years ago. In the '70s and prior to

 

that time the farm on which Mr. Peddycord now lives was owned by a

man by the name of Francis Hungerford. Although lacking in education,

he was a man of more than ordinary intelligence, and had his efforts in life

been directed in the proper channel he would have been a useful man in

any community in which he might have lived.

 

The place in question at that time was in the "back woods," the locality

being sparsely settled and the neighbors few and far between. Seldom

anyone visited the Hungerford family, and for weeks at a time they saw

no one except an occasional hunter and fisherman passing and repassing

that way. Koontz's lake was near there, and surrounding it were thick

woods, underbrush, swamps and marshes, in which was an abundance of

wild game, not counting the barrels and wagonloads of fish that were playing

around the shores waiting to be taken out of the wet. It was in this .sort

of environment that Francis Hungerford conceived the idea of procuring

dies and operating a bogus money manufacturing establishment, thus en-

abling him to earn a living a good deal easier than in chopping down trees,

grubbing out the roots, plowing up the sod, splitting rails, building fences

and such like drudgery. Accordingly he procured a set of dies for the

manufacture of various coins, the principal ones being Mexican dollars. At

that time Mexican dollars were in general circulation, and as tlie Hunger-

ford spurious dollars were a very good imitation of the genuine, they passed

quite readily in the ordinary course of trade. He built a milkhouse near

his residence with a lookout on top. In the floor was a trap door, under-

neath which was a large cellar conveniently arranged for the purpose. Here

he placed his machinery, dies and metal, and forged out his bogus coin by

the bushel without let or hindrance.

 

The greatest difficulty in regard to the success of the scheme was to

devise ways and means of putting the bogus money into circulation. Hunger-

ford started a good deal of it into circulation by paying it out for such pur-

chases as he made in Plymouth and the surrounding towns. But that was

entirely too slow a process, and other individuals whose consciences did not

disturb them were let into the secret, and in the course of time Hungerford

had several assistants who helped him to dispose of the bogus coin.

 

For a considerable time everything went lovely and the financial goose

honked high. Nearly every business man in the towns and villages round

about had his pockets full of Hungerford's dollars, most of which had been

taken as good Mexican money without making any examination or without

any thought that it was spurious, when upon a close examination it was

easy to detect the good from the bad, and it was not long until it was hard

to pass any of them in current business transactions.

 

It was then that the people generally began to try to find out where

the spurious coin came from and who was the manufacturer of it. Suspicion

finally settled upon Hungerford. A detective was sent for, who, after many

difficulties, succeeded in working himself into the good graces of Hunger-

ford, and finally arranged to assist him in coining the bogus money. He

worked away for some time until he got all the information necessary for

his arrest and conviction, when he swore out the necessary papers and the

officers made a raid on the mint, arrested the old man and his son, confis-

cated his dies, plates and machinery, metal, retorts, and stock in trade gen-

erally, and delivered him up to the United States authorities.

 

He was taken to Walkerton, where he was put on the Lake Erie &

Western railroad train for Indianapolis. A trunk containing several hundred

coins was left behind on account of not having room for it in the convey-

ance. After taking Hungerford to Walkerton the wagon was sent back

after the trunk. When it was returned and opened at Walkerton to repack

it the coins were found to be missing and brickbats had been substituted.

The old lady who had been left behind said the coins had been emptied

out into Koontz's lake, and if the authorities wanted them they would have

to go over there and get them. It is needless to say that they are probably

still there.

 

The old man and his son were tried, convicted, and sent to the peni-

tentiary. On account of his age, after a few years the old man was par-

doned, after which he took up his residence in Missouri. It was not long

after he settled there until the old desire to dabble in counterfeit money

came over him. and he was again arrested, convicted and sent to the gov-

ernment prison at Lawrence, Kansas, where it is said he died several years

ago. His son probably served out his sentence, but his whereabouts since

that time is unknown. Others in the neighborhood who were suspected of

having a hand in the business managed to get out of the country without

being arrested, and so ended the only counterfeiting manufactory known to

exist in this section of the country.