mukoh Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 IMO, this is getting beyond out of control. http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-1747-RUSSIA-ROUBL...%3A2%7C294%3A50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottO Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 fake slabed coins? and why are there so many fake russians, and just russians... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vfox Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Trust me, EVERY coin you can imagine is being counterfeited in China currently. It is not just set to Russian coins. Have a look at this guys inventory. And he sells them WITH the copy stamp, imagine all of those who do not. There are hundreds of Chinese dealers online right now and nearly every single one of them sells these types of copies. They are deviously sold by some as the real deal, and like this guy, most (to keep it legit under ebay standards) sells them with the stamp. However US law regulates things a bit differently, but hey, who am I to argue with ebay, right?...right?! http://stores.shop.ebay.com/ixwisdom-Coin-...e__W0QQ_armrsZ1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Trust me, EVERY coin you can imagine is being counterfeited in China currently. It is not just set to Russian coins. Have a look at this guys inventory. And he sells them WITH the copy stamp, imagine all of those who do not. There are hundreds of Chinese dealers online right now and nearly every single one of them sells these types of copies. They are deviously sold by some as the real deal, and like this guy, most (to keep it legit under ebay standards) sells them with the stamp. However US law regulates things a bit differently, but hey, who am I to argue with ebay, right?...right?! http://stores.shop.ebay.com/ixwisdom-Coin-...e__W0QQ_armrsZ1 It's even worse than that ... the word "Replica" on these things is actually only photoshopped into the images. Sellers have been encountered who try to pass them off for real, and they don't have "replica" on them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 They have "copy" stamped into them...all you need to do is contact the seller and ask him not to stamp "copy" on the coin and he will comply.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 fake slabed coins?and why are there so many fake russians, and just russians... It's not just Russian fakes - those get more attention here because so many people who congregate here collect Russian coins and they often post the fakes they encounter. Fakes are also seen of US coins, Canadian coins, European thalers and Latin American coins. Even old Chinese coins! These Chinese operations are big business and they are counterfeiting whatever they can. I find it difficult to believe that they do so without official government approval. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vfox Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 It's not just Russian fakes - those get more attention here because so many people who congregate here collect Russian coins and they often post the fakes they encounter. Fakes are also seen of US coins, Canadian coins, European thalers and Latin American coins. Even old Chinese coins! These Chinese operations are big business and they are counterfeiting whatever they can. I find it difficult to believe that they do so without official government approval. I did a little research into that. Basically what I have learned is that the Chinese government doesn't care about non-Chinese counterfeits and when a counterfeit antiques shop is raided it is only because something was sold as a legitimate item. If you ever go to China you can find these shops in cities or in the local markets. It is huge money compared to what they can make doing other things, so the drive to do so is very high. As for official government approval, no, you will never hear such a thing, as for unofficial approval, absolutely. It makes China's market more money, so it's a "good" business to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 I did a little research into that. Basically what I have learned is that the Chinese government doesn't care about non-Chinese counterfeits and when a counterfeit antiques shop is raided it is only because something was sold as a legitimate item. If you ever go to China you can find these shops in cities or in the local markets. It is huge money compared to what they can make doing other things, so the drive to do so is very high. As for official government approval, no, you will never hear such a thing, as for unofficial approval, absolutely. It makes China's market more money, so it's a "good" business to them. I suppose the Chinese government doesn't care if they fake obsolete Chinese money (e.g. spade and knife money). Perhaps they feel differently about current circulating Chinese coins. On the other hand, I think I read or heard somewhere that a lot of the small denomination Chinese coins in circulation over there are counterfeit. If that is correct, then the first people I'd suspect would be the counterfeiters of collectors' coins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vfox Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 I suppose the Chinese government doesn't care if they fake obsolete Chinese money (e.g. spade and knife money). Perhaps they feel differently about current circulating Chinese coins. On the other hand, I think I read or heard somewhere that a lot of the small denomination Chinese coins in circulation over there are counterfeit. If that is correct, then the first people I'd suspect would be the counterfeiters of collectors' coins. That is very possible because even though there is no law in China against counterfeiting non-Chinese coinage, they still counterfeit the collectors' coins in seclusion. It is very likely the small denomination coinage is just that worthless that the government doesn't want to spend the money investigating it as well. It would be like someone counterfeiting a coin valued at a seventh of a cent or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 That is very possible because even though there is no law in China against counterfeiting non-Chinese coinage, they still counterfeit the collectors' coins in seclusion. It is very likely the small denomination coinage is just that worthless that the government doesn't want to spend the money investigating it as well. It would be like someone counterfeiting a coin valued at a seventh of a cent or less. I have never been to China. A seventh of a cent isn't much, but if the cost of living in China is so much lower than, say, Manhattan, then the purchasing power of such a low denomination coin might not be as tiny as it sounds. I think that if I was going to counterfeit paper money, then I would probably do small denominations like $5 or maybe $10 at the most. Try to spend a $50 or $100 note where I live and the stores all examine it very carefully (if they will accept it at all). But almost nobody ever looks at a $5 (much less a $1). Maybe it works like that in China? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vfox Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 I have never been to China. A seventh of a cent isn't much, but if the cost of living in China is so much lower than, say, Manhattan, then the purchasing power of such a low denomination coin might not be as tiny as it sounds. I think that if I was going to counterfeit paper money, then I would probably do small denominations like $5 or maybe $10 at the most. Try to spend a $50 or $100 note where I live and the stores all examine it very carefully (if they will accept it at all). But almost nobody ever looks at a $5 (much less a $1). Maybe it works like that in China? I'm sure it's a situation similar to that. On occasion we get counterfeit US currency at my work, but I've never seen a counterfeit coin there. It just seems like a waste of time to counterfeit something so small, but then again look at the guy who counterfeited all those nickels back in the 40's! I wonder how it is in places where the money is literally worthless, like Zimbabwe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 I wonder how it is in places where the money is literally worthless, like Zimbabwe? The more things change... Germany, 1923 the more they stay the same... Zimbabwe, 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottO Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 we get counterfieit coins in the UK.. fair few fake £1 around.. and they are easily spotted, no one checks though the main problem i have is.. i want to buy some of these chinese coins, but with all the fakes and averall rarity of the things over here its hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hussulo Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Is this Chinese stuff really going too far already? That bridge was crossed a long time ago. It's bad news for the hobby, but as long as people are buying it, the supply won't stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 The problem isn't just the counterfeiters alone but the buyers who can't be bothered to research about such counterfeit coins. Ideally, it would be nice if the sellers are honest about what they are selling upfront but once you accepted the transaction, everything is considered done. Imagine if you go to a shop and received a note / coin that you aren't happy with. You can ask for another one and once you "accepted" it, it's a done deal. Somewhere along the lines where buyers think they are getting a steal, this is where demand for such "cheap" "quality" coins rise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 The problem isn't just the counterfeiters alone but the buyers who can't be bothered to research about such counterfeit coins. This is displacing blame...the buyer isnt at fault at all...sure...it would be great if you could be an expert regarding everything you buy in life, and certainly the best way to go about it is to know what you are buying and how to determine fakes (when using photos buying over the internet that is often harder)...it is good to go into it having done due diligence and to remember that in the end...you are the only one looking out for you...but in the end...regardless...the full blame rests on the crooks who knowingly sell fakes...not the person who was duped....so yes...the problem IS the counterfeiters and they are completely at fault...the blame rest completely on them and only on them. If I go in the a jewelry shop to buy my wife a ring...I am not an expert in jewelry thus I am relying on them to be honest and to sell me what they say they are selling me...if they dont...it is not my fault for not becoming an expert in the field...it is their fault... and when if comes to crooks, its not a done deal...if you use paypal you can dispute and get the money back from the crook even if the law cant reach them in China or Bulgaria or whereever they might be producing this garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 I disagree Drusus. Sure if you are dealing business in your local country, chances are when such things happen, you can get your seller into real trouble. Not a problem as rules and regulations exist to prevent fraud. However when dealing business overseas where such laws don't really exist, please kindly explain to me why buyers cannot be bothered to check out authenticity in particular goods from countries that are well known to churn out counterfeits. All they need is to confirm with other people and even drop by forums like here. I'm not only talking about blame issue here; I'm talking about who makes counterfeiting profitable. It is the buyers like us that pay good money to the counterfeit business - no one else. If coin counterfeiting isn't profitable, why do it? That applies to all other illegal business out there - if there are ignorant buyers or people who care less, illegal trade continues. The only way to reduce counterfeiting is through better education to both sellers and buyers as well as stricter laws. It doesn't bloody matter if you arrest all the counterfeiters out there - if people are still willing to pay for it and it's profitable, there are always crooks willing to go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 please kindly explain to me why buyers cannot be bothered to check out authenticity in particular goods from countries that are well known to churn out counterfeits. Well, certainly I dont think buyers shouldn't bother...I live by the assumption that everyone is trying to rip me off and I dont care how trusted a dealer is...they are human, they may get fooled themselves or may be crooks as well...so no matter WHERE I am buying from I assume I must exercise due diligence and protect myself (or try) and at least I can say I tried. I wasnt this way until I started collecting coins and realized how many scumbags infest this hobby. All the same, in the end, it is the seller who is committing the crime knowingly making and selling fakes. You can say the buyer should be more careful but in the end, they are not to blame as they simply bought what was offered as real...the seller is the only one at fault. Just because there is a market for something (good deals on coins) does not mean the seller is any less guilty or the buyer holds any guilt for attempting to get a good deal.....there will always be people who buy things they are not experts in so there will always be a market in most areas to rip people off. We cant be experts in everything we buy. Some people think they can buy coins like they can other things...when I wanted to buy a ring for my wife I went to the jewelers (one that is well known) and I bought her a ring. I know nothing about diamonds (nor do I want to become and expert in the field) so I was trusting that jeweler was selling me what he said he was selling me. If, down the line, I find it wasn't...was that my fault or should we all become experts regarding everything we buy before buying it or else we are partially to blame for all those who look to rip us off in that area? of course not. Even the most reputable coin sellers end up selling fakes...if I get duped by CNG do I still share the blame? Fakes straight from china will only fool the newest buyer...GOOD fakes from china might fool people who know more if sold through a US dealer who has a good reputation and was fooled himself...or crooked. In the end...yes...its best to know everything you can possibly know and to be an expert...but everyone doesn't WANT to be thus experts shouldn't point at the guy who decided he wanted to buy a Morgan dollar but is not aware of all the convincing fakes out there and ends up buying a fake and say 'you are partially responsible not only for your own loses but for the whole epidemic of fakes"...we should instead look at the crook who ripped off a guy who got into something without realizing the reality of the situation....If he came to this forum practicing due diligence and we all say it looks fine then he finds out down the line its a fake...do we share the blame now, as well as the buyer and the seller? How much can we displace blame from the scumbags out there trying to rip people off? nuff said from me about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottO Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 which is a problem.. i buy the old cash coins from the 25p bargain bin.. some a possibly restrikes.. at 25p i dont care they are nice to own, and restrikes are helpful 25p? doesnt matter. my dealer does have one of the 50 cash coins at £15... (its large to say the least...) now i know nothing about these larger cash coins, how do i know if it is a fake? it probably isn't, but for £15, for a coin i know nothing about? perhaps its better if we, actually show why something is fake, not everyone has a big pile of referance books to dip into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 This is displacing blame...the buyer isnt at fault at all...sure...it would be great if you could be an expert regarding everything you buy in life, and certainly the best way to go about it is to know what you are buying and how to determine fakes (when using photos buying over the internet that is often harder)...it is good to go into it having done due diligence and to remember that in the end...you are the only one looking out for you...but in the end...regardless...the full blame rests on the crooks who knowingly sell fakes...not the person who was duped....so yes...the problem IS the counterfeiters and they are completely at fault...the blame rest completely on them and only on them. To a certain extent, I agree with you, but the buyer often plays a part. Years ago, I was at a coin show talking with a dealer friend. While I was there, a man came by the table to show the dealer a group of US gold coins which he had purchased. He was feeling very clever and bragging about how he had obtained the coins at a price which was well below market value. You can probably guess the rest. There was a reason why the coins were such a "bargain". Not one of them was real. Was the seller at fault? In my opinion, yes, and I believe the seller was fully aware of the false nature of the coins (that's why they were offered so "cheaply"). But the buyer had a part in this as well. He was greedy and thought he had ripped the coins from the seller. His ego and his greed blinded him to the fact that he was the one who was getting ripped. If he hadn't gone looking for "steals" and was instead willing to pay fairly, he likely would not have been cheated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sturzny Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 we get counterfieit coins in the UK.. fair few fake £1 around.. and they are easily spotted, no one checks though the main problem i have is.. i want to buy some of these chinese coins, but with all the fakes and averall rarity of the things over here its hard. If you want to collect Chinese coins, be prepared to buy some fakes, because it comes with the territory. There are fakes out there that will fool even experienced dealers and 3rd party grading/authenticating services. I have collected Chinese coins for many years and have my share of fakes to show for it. If you stick to relatively low-valued coins and do not buy too much from any one source (until they have proven themselves to be reliable) you should be OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vfox Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 I like reproduction coinage and when I can purchase them at a pretty cheap price, I do so. They are not what I would call collectibles, but more like something of interest when the real thing is too expensive. I even carry a copy of a 1796 small eagle dollar in my pocket just for fun. The coins being counterfeited in China however, do not fall into this category of "acceptable" reproductions. Sure some might stamp every coin with COPY, but there (as said) are more than enough that do not. Because of the ones selling them without the stamp, the legitimacy of all dealers from China pretty much crumbles to nothing. It's a shame honestly, they are skillful counterfeiters and should really do something legal/useful with their skills. I hate to see any artist turn to crime as a way to make money, and whether you admit it or not, the ones doing the engravings by hand are artisans. Unfortunately being a skillful engraver seems to invite bad actions in China. That being said, the internet makes a great resource to educate people, without being highly read on the subject, on how to avoid these counterfeits. My counterfeit photo guide in this forum (which I will be updating this summer) contains counterfeit coin images I found online, almost exclusively from the Chinese counterfeit market. It is up to us (CPer's and collectors as a community) to help educate against this sort of thing. Because it is basically impossible for us to stop them from counterfeiting, the best thing we can do is educate everyone about them so their market dries up on them. Maybe then we will see some legitimate Chinese coin dealers return to the scene. (Just as ScottO was saying, stick to the cheap Chinese coins for now) Bleh, I need to stop rambling, my artists' blood boils when I think about it. Such a waste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stilson Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 I noticed a lot of unmarked stuff turning up on ebay uk. Very little marked as copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiho Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 If he hadn't gone looking for "steals" and was instead willing to pay fairly, he likely would not have been cheated. Earlier this year I bought a nice 1758 Netherlands Gold Double Ducat on eBay. It wasn't a steal, in fact it was the most I had ever paid for a coin in my life. And it came from an American coin dealer with perfect feedback who seemed extremely honest. NGC flagged it as NOT GENUINE. Last month I bought a very nice 1750 Netherlands 14G Gold Rider restrike from a Dutch seller in Canada with 100% perfect feedback. I paid full market value. NGC flagged it as NOT GENUINE. I lost over $200 on the first coin even though the seller allowed me to return it minus his eBay fees and shipping costs. I just found out about the second coin a few minutes ago. I hope the seller will let me return it. I wasn't looking for "steals", just nice looking coins that would add to my collection. I think I have bought my last Dutch gold coin on eBay or elsewhere. I'll have to be content with what I have already. About all I can really do is refuse to sell my coins to Chinese buyers on eBay, assuming that they will be used to make counterfeits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted April 2, 2009 Report Share Posted April 2, 2009 I lost over $200 on the first coin even though the seller allowed me to return it minus his eBay fees and shipping costs. I don't wish to sound flippant, because that is not my intent, but any "dealer" worthy of the name would refund your money in full. Why on earth should it be YOUR responsibility to pay the ebay fees and shipping costs for someone who sold you a fake? What should happen here is that ALL of your money should be refunded, including shipping expenses both ways, WITH an apology for your time and trouble. I would leave the seller a negative and give serious consideration to buying coins somewhere other than ebay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.