alexbq2 Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 i think i won this one bitkin R1 uzdenikov (_) Great coin! Congrats!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 I think I won this coin from Kunker. MMD Elizabeth over SPB Ivan. You can clearly see SPB on Elizabeth's chest. Yes you can! Very cool! It's great that some nice coins are going to forum-friends. That's makes four people who've reported nice wins so far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal Citizen Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 I think I won this coin from Kunker. MMD Elizabeth over SPB Ivan. You can clearly see SPB on Elizabeth's chest. Very cool one ! Congrats ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 I think I won this coin from Kunker. MMD Elizabeth over SPB Ivan. You can clearly see SPB on Elizabeth's chest. besides of "new" mint mark MMD-SPB, there are many details of undercoin on other side of it have you heard that russians found the latest overstrike date on to Elizabeth I rubles - 1745 one!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 have you heard that russians found the latest overstrike date on to Elizabeth I rubles - 1745 one!!! Do you have pictures? I only have overstruck roubles dated 1742 and 1743 & can't recall ever seeing one with a later date. Congratulations to IgorS on a neat coin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Do you have pictures? I only have overstruck roubles dated 1742 and 1743 & can't recall ever seeing one with a later date. Congratulations to IgorS on a neat coin! that overstruck ruble of 1745 was on molotok.ru and a friend on mine made an article on his side rucollect.ru which is i am giving you a link to http://www.rucollect.ru/news/221-news however molotok put this item in its archieve as it is expired above link has a description of this coin but pic of the other side with traces of overstrike part unfortunately missing unless there is a way to retrieve it from archieve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted March 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 I think I won this coin from Kunker. MMD Elizabeth over SPB Ivan. You can clearly see SPB on Elizabeth's chest. Fantastic, Igor ... congratulations! I assume that you have another source for prices ... since Künker hasn't posted any PR even for the auction of Monday, March 9 yet, I am thinking they will probably put everything up at once for all the auctions that took place this week. And I don't want to call them up since this would delay things even more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 that overstruck ruble of 1745 was on molotok.ru and a friend on mine made an article on his side rucollect.ru which is i am giving you a link to http://www.rucollect.ru/news/221-news however molotok put this item in its archieve as it is expired above link has a description of this coin but pic of the other side with traces of overstrike part unfortunately missing unless there is a way to retrieve it from archieve That is too bad. I would really like to see good clear photos of the 1745 overstrike. I assume that it has been carefully examined to rule out any possibility of the date having been altered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 That is too bad. I would really like to see good clear photos of the 1745 overstrike. I assume that it has been carefully examined to rule out any possibility of the date having been altered. I remember this coin. It sold in Kunker 148 October 2008 Lot 8180. Hammer 5500 Euro. I was bidding on it, but... You can probably find a better picture in Kunker's archive or coinarchives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Fantastic, Igor ... congratulations! I assume that you have another source for prices ... since Künker hasn't posted any PR even for the auction of Monday, March 9 yet, I am thinking they will probably put everything up at once for all the auctions that took place this week. And I don't want to call them up since this would delay things even more! Bob, yes, I had a friend at the auction and he gave me some random PRs. Very curious to see the entire PRs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 I remember this coin. It sold in Kunker 148 October 2008 Lot 8180. Hammer 5500 Euro. I was bidding on it, but...You can probably find a better picture in Kunker's archive or coinarchives. I drew a blank at Kuenker's site and at coinarchives, but found THIS coin at sixbid. I think this is the coin you mean, yes? HERE is an enlarged version of the sixbid picture. The coin certainly looks like an overstrike, but it is hard for me to tell for sure what the undertype is (although an Ioann III rouble seems a good bet). I see no evidence of tampering at the date. This is a coin I wish I could see in hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 I drew a blank at Kuenker's site and at coinarchives, but found THIS coin at sixbid. I think this is the coin you mean, yes? HERE is an enlarged version of the sixbid picture. The coin certainly looks like an overstrike, but it is hard for me to tell for sure what the undertype is (although an Ioann III rouble seems a good bet). I see no evidence of tampering at the date. This is a coin I wish I could see in hand. That's the one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 That's the one. Okay, Igor, thank you for the information. Did you see the coin itself in your hand? Or just the picture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Okay, Igor, thank you for the information. Did you see the coin itself in your hand? Or just the picture? Grivna, no, I did not hold it in my hands. From the picture I could only tell that the coin is oversized, since no undercoin is visible. According to the sources, St. Petersburg mint did a much better job in obliterating prior images from the coins during restriking process than the Moscow Mint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Grivna, no, I did not hold it in my hands. From the picture I could only tell that the coin is oversized, since no undercoin is visible. According to the sources, St. Petersburg mint did a much better job in obliterating prior images from the coins during restriking process than the Moscow Mint. I think I can see traces of... something... on Elizabeth's chest and traces of flattened legend. If I remember correctly, both my 1742 and 1743 are SPB strikes and bear clear evidence of the undertype and the 1741 date. I can see no remaining traces of "1741". On the obverse legend, I see what might be traces of flattened letters between the letters of Elizabeth's legend, but they are not clear enough in the picture for me to identify. The overstrike on this one is much stronger than on either my 1742 or my 1743. A possible explanation is that in 1742, the pressure was on at the mint to obliterate all coins with Ioann's image on them as quickly as possible. The mint probably did most of the overstriking in 1742 (certainly that is the overstrike date I see most often). So, probably for at least 1742, speed of overstriking was desired to do as many coins as quickly as possible (therefore less attention was paid to destroying all traces of the undertype). 1743 would have seen fewer coins overstruck. By the time 1745 came, there was probably only a few coins coming in accasionally for overstriking and so there was probably much more care taken to remove all traces of the undertype on the later dates. I might be wrong, but that is how I imagine it worked (or maybe they had better technology with more powerful coining presses in 1745, but I doubt it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Bob, yes, I had a friend at the auction and he gave me some random PRs. Very curious to see the entire PRs... prices are issued for all auctions on Kunker website and waiting for lucky winners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted March 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Looks like these are mine soon: 3405 - 50 Kopeks 1899, St. Petersburg 3411 - 50 Kopeks 1911, St. Petersburg Looks like I will have to wait a little longer to get a decent 1909. But 1908 from Gorny ... well, that's almost too good to be true! Wouldn't have thought these would go so high, though: 3404 - 50 Kopeks 1898: €30,000 3406 - 50 Kopeks 1903: €25,000 I believe the NGSA auction had two coins -- same years, same condition -- go for around $10,000 or a little less each ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted March 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 How about Lot#3316 ?Thanks ! Lot 3316 went for €16,000: 25 Kopeks 1889, Bitkin 92 (R2) -- proof, only 1,002 struck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted March 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Not surprised that there were no takers for this one, although it would make a great conversation piece (but for €25,000??? ): http://www.sixbid.com/nav.php?lot=3466&...lot&sid=116 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Wouldn't have thought these would go so high, though:3404 - 50 Kopeks 1898: €30,000 3406 - 50 Kopeks 1903: €25,000 I believe the NGSA auction had two coins -- same years, same condition -- go for around $10,000 or a little less each ... It looks to me like IgorS is correct in his take on things based on recent auction results. It seems that rare and choice coins remain in strong demand, although prices are not going up as fast as they once were or might have hit a plateau. Common stuff is down and probably will remain that way for a while. Now might be as good as it gets for collectors wanting to buy (or maybe not - my crystal ball is a bit cloudy today). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Lot 3316 went for €16,000:25 Kopeks 1889, Bitkin 92 (R2) -- proof, only 1,002 struck Thanks ! Really scarce piece. Thought it would go higher, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 I drew a blank at Kuenker's site and at coinarchives, but found THIS coin at sixbid. I think this is the coin you mean, yes? HERE is an enlarged version of the sixbid picture. The coin certainly looks like an overstrike, but it is hard for me to tell for sure what the undertype is (although an Ioann III rouble seems a good bet). I see no evidence of tampering at the date. This is a coin I wish I could see in hand. Try these two unless you see more: 1.throught the word ELIZABETH you can see ANTON. 2.on its observe next to the orb there is an visiable eagle from other coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Try these two unless you see more: 1.throught the word ELIZABETH you can see ANTON. 2.on its observe next to the orb there is an visiable eagle from other coin. Thank you for your suggestions. Between the cross of the orb and the eagle's wing, I see a line which might be the outline of an earlier eagle's wing. Or it might be a small lamination. In the word "РУБЛЬ", I think I can see traces of an earlier "РУБЛЬ", particularly near the "Р" and between the "Б" and the "Л". Above the "И" in "ЕЛИСАВЕТЪ", I can see what looks like traces of the "О" from "ІОАННЪ" and what might be traces of other letters (or maybe just some toning?) around that "О". The most obvious thing I can see is what appears to be traces of Ioann's bust above Elizabeth's right breast by her lock of hair and what might be traces of St. Andrew's order. The 1742 overstrikes I have seen seem to have more of the undertype surviving and are easier to identify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Thank you for your suggestions. Between the cross of the orb and the eagle's wing, I see a line which might be the outline of an earlier eagle's wing. Or it might be a small lamination. In the word "РУБЛЬ", I think I can see traces of an earlier "РУБЛЬ", particularly near the "Р" and between the "Б" and the "Л". Above the "И" in "ЕЛИСАВЕТЪ", I can see what looks like traces of the "О" from "ІОАННЪ" and what might be traces of other letters (or maybe just some toning?) around that "О". The most obvious thing I can see is what appears to be traces of Ioann's bust above Elizabeth's right breast by her lock of hair and what might be traces of St. Andrew's order. The 1742 overstrikes I have seen seem to have more of the undertype surviving and are easier to identify. OK, I am glad that you found some details too Interesting that this coin was first offered on molotok (russian on-line auction, like ours e-bay), then was auctioning at Kunker, and now finds its way going to a collection - for how long? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 OK, I am glad that you found some details too Interesting that this coin was first offered on molotok (russian on-line auction, like ours e-bay), then was auctioning at Kunker, and now finds its way going to a collection - for how long? This is a very interesting coin. Until this example appeared, I had never seen an overstruck Ioann rouble dated later than 1743. I assumed the overstriking program had ended in 1743. However, that is not necessarily correct. We know that 1. Ioann's silver coins were recalled and overstruck with Elizabeth's dies, 2. that there were harsh punishments for anyone who did not comply with this order, 3. that many people did not comply (because Ioann's coins still exist today), 4. that the overstriking was part of a determined effort to suppress all evidence of his reign, including the sealing of archives and 5. that he was secretly imprisoned in solitary confinement because, for as long as he lived, he would always be a threat to Elizabeth's (and her successors') hold on the throne. In consideration of these facts, it seems reasonable that Ioann's coins might be discovered at any time during Elizabeth's reign (including 1745 or even later) and then officially destroyed by overstriking (or melting?). If so, they would probably be overstruck (as they were discovered) with the dies then in use. So maybe we will someday see a 1746 or later overstrike. Is there anything in the archival documents in the GM corpus that mentions how long Elizabeth's overstriking of Ioann's coins continued? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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