grivna1726 Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 This coin was recently offered on ebay by a questionable seller with a history of selling fake coins online. While that does not necessarily mean that this coin is also a fake, it does raise suspicion. What I find interesting about this piece is the apparent overstrike on an earlier thaler. Roubles of this period are known to exist as overstrikes, although not often so obviously as this coin. There are characteristics of the undertype which cause me to doubt its authenticity and to wonder if it has been added afterward to make a possible fake more "interesting". The design of the arms of the "undertype" is suggestive of Spanish or German design. The castles bring to mind the arms of Castile and Leon seen on Spanish 8 reales coins, but do not match that design. Does anyone recognize these arms? The picture is the same one posted to the ebay auction, but rotated 90 degrees, reduced to grayscale and saved in *.gif format to aid in correcting the "undertype" design alignment. The original image can be found here. Thanks in advance for any help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 I unfortunately don't know much about European coinage which hinders my knowledge about possible earlier coins used as planchets. As far as I can remember, some Spanish-Dutch patagon were overstruck but as I don't remember what it looked like, I can be totally wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 I unfortunately don't know much about European coinage which hinders my knowledge about possible earlier coins used as planchets. As far as I can remember, some Spanish-Dutch patagon were overstruck but as I don't remember what it looked like, I can be totally wrong. so far I checked Fuchs collection part III and there are similar but not identical lot 17 and 73 with fortress... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 This coin was recently offered on ebay by a questionable seller with a history of selling fake coins online. While that does not necessarily mean that this coin is also a fake, it does raise suspicion. What I find interesting about this piece is the apparent overstrike on an earlier thaler. Roubles of this period are known to exist as overstrikes, although not often so obviously as this coin. There are characteristics of the undertype which cause me to doubt its authenticity and to wonder if it has been added afterward to make a possible fake more "interesting". The design of the arms of the "undertype" is suggestive of Spanish or German design. The castles bring to mind the arms of Castile and Leon seen on Spanish 8 reales coins, but do not match that design. Does anyone recognize these arms? The picture is the same one posted to the ebay auction, but rotated 90 degrees, reduced to grayscale and saved in *.gif format to aid in correcting the "undertype" design alignment. The original image can be found here. Thanks in advance for any help. after checking few UBS and GORNY auction catalogs I gave up but I think DAVENPORT on talers would be the best choice if such castle and fortress design exist somewhere on thalers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted February 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 after checking few UBS and GORNY auction catalogs I gave up but I think DAVENPORT on talers would be the best choice if such castle and fortress design exist somewhere on thalers... Thank you for your effort and your suggestion. Unfortunately, I do not have a set of Davenport's books. I think that it is probably not a real overstrike and the design traces of the undertype might have been engraved into a fake mourning rouble. If so, it might be that the arms are of a type that was actually used, or possibly a fantasy design. It is not a design that I recognize (although I am not a specialist in European thalers). There are some very smart and well-informed people who read these threads and I'm hoping that one or more of them will know the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted February 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I unfortunately don't know much about European coinage which hinders my knowledge about possible earlier coins used as planchets. As far as I can remember, some Spanish-Dutch patagon were overstruck but as I don't remember what it looked like, I can be totally wrong. If it is a real overstrike (which I doubt), then Dutch or German origin seems like a good bet, although it could be from any European country that issued thalers. The castles are seen on Spanish 8 reales coins as representative of Castille, but I don't recognize these arms, which look like they include wings(?) and a bearded human face above the shield (just below the "М" and "П" of "ІМПЕРАТРІЦА"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 If it is a real overstrike (which I doubt), then Dutch or German origin seems like a good bet, although it could be from any European country that issued thalers. The castles are seen on Spanish 8 reales coins as representative of Castille, but I don't recognize these arms, which look like they include wings(?) and a bearded human face above the shield (just below the "М" and "П" of "ІМПЕРАТРІЦА"). if Davenport catalog is on CD, I am the one who will check it... you can be right that castle are suspicious, so far what I saw they are away of each other not so close as on pic... by the way lets check a coin itself (Kat'ky), if this a fake, so there is no need to go further to search for castles/fortress... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Thank you for your effort and your suggestion. Unfortunately, I do not have a set of Davenport's books. I think that it is probably not a real overstrike and the design traces of the undertype might have been engraved into a fake mourning rouble. If so, it might be that the arms are of a type that was actually used, or possibly a fantasy design. It is not a design that I recognize (although I am not a specialist in European thalers). There are some very smart and well-informed people who read these threads and I'm hoping that one or more of them will know the answer. GM catalog has five different variants of this mourning ruble and this one is number 3 by GM, and it looks genuine coin to me by its picture unless it is high quality cast... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted February 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 GM catalog has five different variants of this mourning ruble and this one is number 3 by GM, and it looks genuine coin to me by its picture unless it is high quality cast... It does appear to closely resemble GM-3. It sold for $1,580.00 so, if it is real, then I believe that it sold at a price well below fair market value. If genuine, it could reasonably be expected to bring multiples of that amount in a real auction (which the seller might well know). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 It does appear to closely resemble GM-3. It sold for $1,580.00 so, if it is real, then I believe that it sold at a price well below fair market value. If genuine, it could reasonably be expected to bring multiples of that amount in a real auction (which the seller might well know). if genuine, the sold price does not mean anything, because the seller could have been using a second id (or his friend id) to save a coin from being sold by low price... alexander house auction 5 lot 33 looks similar to this one besides its condition was estimated to $25000-30000 (AU50) and sold at $34000... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 if genuine, the sold price does not mean anything, because the seller could have been using a second id (or his friend id) to save a coin from being sold by low price...alexander house auction 5 lot 33 looks similar to this one besides its condition was estimated to $25000-30000 (AU50) and sold at $34000... i still keep looking for european thaler as an undertype coin and so far i have not seen similar piece, very interesting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 i still keep looking for european thaler as an undertype coin and so far i have not seen similar piece, very interesting... It seems odd that so many details of the undertype are visible on the portrait, yet almost nothing is seen on the eagle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 The rule at the mint was to completely remove images from the foreign talers before they could be used for striking. I do not know how the process was carried out, so can not tell you if one side coud survive the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 The rule at the mint was to completely remove images from the foreign talers before they could be used for striking. I do not know how the process was carried out, so can not tell you if one side coud survive the process. i do not have a handy information at this moment but was the weight of the thalers matching to the russian rubles, if not how much was a difference in weight... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 i do not have a handy information at this moment but was the weight of the thalers matching to the russian rubles, if not how much was a difference in weight... I don't know. I think the foreign thalers were just used without any change in their weight, but am not certain. I also do not know what method was used to try to eliminate details of the undertype - maybe squeezing under flat plates or some sort of rollers (like a wringer in an old washing machine?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 I don't know. I think the foreign thalers were just used without any change in their weight, but am not certain. I also do not know what method was used to try to eliminate details of the undertype - maybe squeezing under flat plates or some sort of rollers (like a wringer in an old washing machine?). right, i just reviewed Spassky book and it says that Peter I prepared a weight of ruble be equal to one thaler back to 1698 reducing the weight of the silver kopek that way that 100 silver kopeks be equal to 1 ruble / thaler / about 28 grams ... then Spassky mentioning that overstriking rubles from thalers simplified a process and reduced the prices of minting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 It seems odd that so many details of the undertype are visible on the portrait, yet almost nothing is seen on the eagle. i just finished looking at pictures of Fenzi/Diakov book on rubles of Peter the Great from the Grand Duke Georgii Mikhailovich collection of Smithsonian holding and can tell that only number 10, 11 and 30 from over 400 pieces have traces of overstriking on thalers (years 1704, 1704 and 1705 accordingly) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 This coin was recently offered on ebay by a questionable seller with a history of selling fake coins online. While that does not necessarily mean that this coin is also a fake, it does raise suspicion. What I find interesting about this piece is the apparent overstrike on an earlier thaler. Roubles of this period are known to exist as overstrikes, although not often so obviously as this coin. There are characteristics of the undertype which cause me to doubt its authenticity and to wonder if it has been added afterward to make a possible fake more "interesting". The design of the arms of the "undertype" is suggestive of Spanish or German design. The castles bring to mind the arms of Castile and Leon seen on Spanish 8 reales coins, but do not match that design. Does anyone recognize these arms? The picture is the same one posted to the ebay auction, but rotated 90 degrees, reduced to grayscale and saved in *.gif format to aid in correcting the "undertype" design alignment. The original image can be found here. Thanks in advance for any help. Undercoin is a Stadt Thorn Taler, around 1630 Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Undercoin is a Stadt Thorn Taler, around 1630 Steve thank you so much, at least we know that undertype is real and exist, if all is real Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Undercoin is a Stadt Thorn Taler, around 1630 Steve So it is! It's listed under Poland (Thorn or "Torun") in Krause (p. 1087, 2nd ed.) as KM-17, Dav-4371. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 So it is! It's listed under Poland (Thorn or "Torun") in Krause (p. 1087, 2nd ed.) as KM-17, Dav-4371. Thank you! You're welcome. Here's an image from Spink Zurich 23 (1987), Lot 289 http://www.russiannumismaticsociety.org/Q224.jpg Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 You're welcome. Here's an image from Spink Zurich 23 (1987), Lot 289 http://www.russiannumismaticsociety.org/Q224.jpg Steve Interesting. The 1630 coin you show looks like it might be an overstrike itself. Note particularly the field and legend areas at 5 & 6 o'clock on the reverse (arms) side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Interesting. The 1630 coin you show looks like it might be an overstrike itself. Note particularly the field and legend areas at 5 & 6 o'clock on the reverse (arms) side. Did you read Zander book on Efumoks and Perer I ruble chapters, very interesting information on oversrtiking thalers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Another 1630 Thorn Taler, this one at the upcoming Gorny auction http://www.gmcoinart.de/index.php?area=auc...33830&img=2 Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Does the identification of the underlying Taler indicate that the Mourning Ruble in question is authentic, or that the forger, was clever enough to strike the fake onto an original Taler. Correct silver content, size, and weight as a starting point. This is my question, given the fake Dassier Ruble also sold by this gentleman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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