constanius Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Accession of Queen Caroline Consort of George IV. Bronze 54mm by G.Mills after P.Rouw 1820. BHM# 1019 Whilst researching Queen Caroline I have come to the conclusion she was an innocent victim of George's desire to be rid of her. Just a few things I noted; She supported 9 orphans paid for their lodging, clothed, feed and taught them herself. She spoke german, english, french and italian. She played the harp & harpsicord. She painted. Studied geography, astronomy, logic but loved history (visited battlefields). She even made some of her own furnishing. She designed her own garden, planted potatoes and sold them. She was less formal (read stuffy) than British royalty and nobility. Consequently she did not play the 'court games' or observe the 'court protocol' which made her unpopular at court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 It could not have been easy to be married to George IV. I did a paper on George IV and while doing so I also did research on Caroline. To be honest...in the end, I concluded that neither seemed to be the best humanity had to offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted February 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 I feel she was a very brave woman; When offered a handsome pension to remain abroad but not to be acknowledged aa Queen she refused and returned to England to face what would for anyone be a very frightening prospect of trial by attainer in the house of Lords (Lords all beholden to the Crown, Geo IV, for huge sums of money each year) in what was for all intents and purposes a show trial, with the verdict predetermined, she gave up the money, kept her honour and returned to England where the whole of the resources of the Crown and government were arraigned against her. That to me is bravery. To be banish from Court, to have your only child taken from you, to have false accusations made against you, to be hounded from the England by a vindictive husband (who just happened to be the most powerful man in the country), to suffer plots and spies whilst in exile, and still retain enough strength and determination to fight back, to me, shows a person of exceptional character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted February 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 She did not wage war and fight battles like Napoleon, but the disparity between him and his adversaries were nothing as compared to hers. He controlled a country and waged war against other countries. His armies fought other armies. She was just a lone woman who had war and battles thrust upon her, but her adversary was a Prince/Regent/King of England who when Regent or King controlled the Government of England and pro-government newspapers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 You have a point. but if even half of what I have read about her personal life, both when she was moved into her own house or in exile is true (and it could all just be slander), she was no angel and to have such a woman as Queen would have been about as embarrassing as having George IV as King. One must be careful not to believe everything written about a person but one must also not discount it...there is often kernels of truth behind rumors. One could hardly blame her for taking lovers, or living as if she were married to her servant Pergami as her own husband hated her and she hated him. But this was not the case of just a wife of a wealthy man scorned...this would be the queen and although I am sure much of what was said about how she conducted her personal life is possibly over blown, all the same a Queen who cavorted with commoners and servants would have been a disgrace...just like having a king like George IV was probably an embarrassment to those used to the penny pinching, highly moral example of his father. Needless to say I did not walk away with the feeling of 'poor woman' as much as...these two hated each other but probably deserved each other. If they had just been able to come to a truce, live in the same house but have sex with whomever they liked...ignored each other save for official business...they might have had a happy little broken home as they both seemed to me to be hedonists. Lets not forget also that the times were highly partisan...so many things were reported about both...painting him as both a good, forward thinking monarch...and a fat drunk spend thrift...her as both a martyr and a whore. These quotes are about the same man BY the same man: Of King George IV the Duke of Wellington had stated: "(he is) the worst man I ever fell in with my whole life, the most selfish, the most false, the most ill-natured, the most entirely without one redeeming quality" Although in his eulogy of the king he praised his knowledge and talent calling him "the most accomplished man of his age." ...and if one thinks he said this because he wouldnt speak ill of the dead in his own eulogy...in an even later statement he says George was: "a magnificent patron of the arts...the most extraordinary compound of talent, wit, buffoonery, obstinacy, and good feeling -- in short a medley of the most opposite qualities, with a great preponderance of good that I ever saw in any character in my life." One thing is true...George did not want to be married to Caroline nor did she want to be married to him...but he would be King...so she had a definite disadvantage in their personal war...if she thought she could butt heads with him and win on the good will of the commoners...she was kidding herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moustan Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 I know it's a year ahead of the obese wreck that was our Great Georgivs IV, but I recommend that you read Shelley's England in 1819 - it's an anarchist (and naturally controversial) form of sonnet that gives an opposing view to the then establishment, the opening verse is (give or take punctuation): An old, mad, blind, despised and dying king, Princes, the dregs of their dull race who flow Through public scorn, mud from a muddy spring Rulers who neither see nor feel nor know But leech-like to their fainting country cling Till they drop blind in blood without a blow Of course this was published post-humously as it's effectively treason, and although it's hyperbolic it's good to have alternate views - although I'd imagine that Punch would have provided a less than charming portrait anyway. P.S although the above was written during the reign of George III he was by this time, 'old, mad, blind, despised and dying' spending the remainder of his incontinent days in the confines of his palace (note the similarities to Lear) and his son was Prince Regent. Sorry for the wee rant up above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted February 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 "Needless to say I did not walk away with the feeling of 'poor woman' as much as...these two hated each other but probably deserved each other. If they had just been able to come to a truce, live in the same house but have sex with whomever they liked...ignored each other save for official business...they might have had a happy little broken home as they both seemed to me to be hedonists" The Prince of Wales selected his own mistress Lady Jersey to be Caroline's Mistress of the Wardrobe (even before he had met Caroline, even sent her to meet Caroline on her arrival in England) and expected Caroline to eat all her meals with her and treat her as a friend of his. How could anyone accept such an insult, to have her husband's mistress as her constant companion and also be expected to treat her with respect? That is akin to having salt rubbed into the wound. Far from Caroline seeking separation both physical and emotional from her husband, she tried to remain at Court and always professed a desire to be allowed to live with George and always said she loved him, even after his despicable treatment of her. George, when forced to take a wife already had his lover and had no intention of making the marriage 'work' he just needed a wife, an heir and parliament to award him more money. How poor Caroline can be condemned, along with George, for all what transpired after the wedding is a mystery to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Maybe because you are proceeding in the assumption that these things are all true about what mean old George did to poor Caroline and she was just a victim, or that all that is said about her that paints her in a negative light is untrue?...her actions do not portray...to me...a woman who is just a victim... In the end, I dispise the concept of royalty and would have a real problem living under them...I think France had the right idea as to the proper fate of such people... So I would never defend any of them. I think Black Adder did the best job with George IV and his episode about the french revolution with Le Comte de Frou Frou was dead on when the count said looking at his sausage that looked quite a bit like a large donkey member 'I dont want to make money...I want others to make money and give it to me.' (or something like that ) That sums up Royalty in my eyes...I wouldnt shed a tear for any fate that befalls them be they a spoiled indulgent prince or a spoiled indulgent princess that must deal with that spoiled indulgent prince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted February 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Trying to find a wife for George P.O.W. Blackadder style Blackadder : Caroline of Brunswick is the only available princess in Europe. Baldrick : And what's wrong with her? Blackadder : Get more coffee! It's horrid! Change it! Take me roughly from behind! No, not like that, like this! Trousers off! Tackle out! Walk the dog! Where's my presents! Baldrick : All right! Which one do you want me to do first? Blackadder : No, no that's what Caroline's like. She is famous for having the worst personality in Germany, and as you can imagine, that's up against some pretty stiff competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moustan Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Trying to find a wife for George P.O.W. Blackadder style Blackadder : Caroline of Brunswick is the only available princess in Europe. Baldrick : And what's wrong with her? Blackadder : Get more coffee! It's horrid! Change it! Take me roughly from behind! No, not like that, like this! Trousers off! Tackle out! Walk the dog! Where's my presents! Baldrick : All right! Which one do you want me to do first? Blackadder : No, no that's what Caroline's like. She is famous for having the worst personality in Germany, and as you can imagine, that's up against some pretty stiff competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted February 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Frances, Lady Jersey Occupied the Prince from 1794 to 1798. Her husband George Bussey Villers the 4th Earl of Jersey was the Prince of Wales Master of Horse. Born Frances Twysden in 1753 she was the daughter of the Irish Bishop of Raphoe. At 17 she married the 4th Earl of Jersey then 35. He was a member of the Prince's household as the Lord of the Bedchamber. The Prince first tried to bed her in 1782 without success. She had affairs with the diplomat William Fawkener and the 5th Earl of Carlisle. In 1794 as a 41 year old grandmother but still highly attractive she began an affair with the Prince of Wales. It is she who encouraged him to break off his relationship with Mrs. Fitzherbert and marry in order to settle his debts. She also encouraged the choice of Caroline of Brunswick whom she felt would be no threat to her hold over the Prince. She was made one of Princess Caroline's Ladies in waiting. His other Mistresses; Mary Robinson, Mrs Grace Dalyrymple Eliot, Lady Melbourne, Elizabeth Billington, Elizabeth Bridget Armistead, Mrs Maria Anne Fitzherbet, Mrs Anne Maria Crouch, Isabella Lady Hertford, Elizabeth Countess Conyngham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I love Black Adder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted February 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I love Black Adder We might disagree on Caroline, but that leads to a healthy historical debate, whereas we are in total agreement on Blackadder. If we had disagreed about Blackadder, would that have lead to a hysterical debate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elverno Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I have to agree about Blackadder. About Caroline I would point out that the morals of the times were quite different than ours today. This was particularly true among people who were living in an arranged marriage. It was common to have some (or a lot) on the side; it was expected however that the side would not be paraded to the general public. In this aspect of their lives George was perhaps worse than Caroline, it was public knowledge, noted in such places as Joseph Farrington's diaries the who, what, when and where of George's various mistresses. Because Caroline spent a fair amount of their marriage in semi-exile her affairs were less public and in fact the continental public cared very little in any case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moustan Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Ach it's a shame that the inbred nobility generate so much interest - the enlightenment had much more favourable figures and yet Kings and Queens seem to obnoxiously come to the fore as ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted February 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Well I guess Caroline did win, as despite all that George did, he could not stop her becoming Queen. He could and did prevent her coronation but she was still Queen of England. He could not even divorce her. Only her death solved his 'Problem' but even then, posthumously, she was still his Queen, he was to have no other! Who knows how thing would have panned out if she had not died so suddenly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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