guitarjock Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 Hello, I am pretty new to coin collecting. When my Father died in 2001, he passed a small coin collection on to me and my sister. We split the collection by picking one at a time. I put the collection away after I had it appriased for tax purposes back in 2001. I had it appraised by a small coin shop here in Tucson, Arizona. The appraiser noticed a Russian coin that I had and told me that it was probably the most valuable coin in the collection. Just the other day, I pulled out the collection and re-discovered the russian coin. I had always wondered what it was, but was never able to find any information on it. I decided to type some of the words into Google to see if I could find anything, and after some serious searching, i found some coins that look a little like it. The few coins like this that I found on-line sold at auctions recently for anywhere around 16,000 up to 70,000 USD. However, my coin is very worn and has a lot of toning. I am not interested in selling it, but I wonder if it is authentic or maybe a novodel. I found this site and noticed that many of you have some expertise in this area. Here are a few scans of the coin. I would appreciate it if you would let me know what you think. Please let me know what you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 Hello and welcome to coinpeople. Sorry to hear about your dad's loss, I'm sure he must have left behind quite a fair bit of interesting coins for you to learn what he used to collect. About the ruble, I do believe it's genuine although it's very unlikely it to fetch that amount of money you quoted. I guess it is not unreasonable to ask for about 200-400usd from the prices I see on ebay but please don't quote me on that. Feel free to post any Russian related coins and you might not know what some of them may be valued at. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 Just the other day, I pulled out the collection and re-discovered the russian coin. I had always wondered what it was, but was never able to find any information on it. The coin is a silver rouble of Tsar Paul I (1796-1801). The device that looks like a cross is actually 4 Cyrillic "P"s (for "Paul"). The Cyrillic "P" closely resembles the Greek letter "Pi", which you probably remember from high school math class. The "I" in the center means "the first" (there was only one Paul). The legend says "coin value rouble 1798". Paul was a deeply religious man and that is reflected in his coinage. The other side, with the inscription inside the cartouche, is a religious inscription. I am not certain of the exact translation, but I think it means something like "Not unto us, Not unto us, but unto Thy Will" and is apparently taken from the Russian Orthodox liturgy. Perhaps one of the native Russian speakers here can provide a better translation. BTW, welcome to the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marv Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 Coin prices, even for Russian coins which now are very popular, are very condition sensative. Even a very rare coin will bring a higher price in a high state of preservation versus a well-worn condition. That of course presumes that the coin is genuine, and, to be sure of your coin, you might want to send it to a reputable third party grading (TPG) company such as NGC (www.ngccoin.com) or PCGS (www.pcgs.com). For a fee, they will render opinions about authenticity and grade. However, this service costs money, and if the coin is not worth very much, it might not make sense to avail yourself of this service. The first step is to get some idea if this piece is genuine. You could go to Ebay, search for this coin already graded, in a holder of NGC or PCGS, and, if there is a clear, close photo of the coin, compare each detail of your coin to the picture. If the details match, then that is one piece of evidence. The weight also is a clue. Find a reference that gives the weight and dimensions, including thickness, of this coin and weigh and measure yours. If the weight and dimensions are close, then the the metal content should be correct. According to Julian's standard work, the 1798 MB version of this coin, which is what you have, is not a scarce coin, in fact it is the most commonly-seen coin of this type. And, since your coin is heavily worn, it is probably not worth much. The central "I" is almost completely worn off and the tablet side is also well worn, so I would grade this as "good" at best. Marv Finnley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 The coin is a silver rouble of Tsar Paul I (1796-1801). The device that looks like a cross is actually 4 Cyrillic "P"s (for "Paul"). The Cyrillic "P" closely resembles the Greek letter "Pi", which you probably remember from high school math class. The "I" in the center means "the first" (there was only one Paul). The legend says "coin value rouble 1798". Paul was a deeply religious man and that is reflected in his coinage. The other side, with the inscription inside the cartouche, is a religious inscription. I am not certain of the exact translation, but I think it means something like "Not unto us, Not unto us, but unto Thy Will" and is apparently taken from the Russian Orthodox liturgy. Perhaps one of the native Russian speakers here can provide a better translation. BTW, welcome to the board. As I recall, Paul I was a free mason, and he led the Knights of the Maltese Cross – a Masonic order. The motto translated by grivna1726 is that of a Masonic order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 ...the 1798 MB version of this coin, which is what you have, is not a scarce coin, in fact it is the most commonly-seen coin of this type. Based on my research I'd agree with this, though the 1801CM-AI Rouble is a very close second. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 As I recall, Paul I was a free mason, and he led the Knights of the Maltese Cross – a Masonic order. The motto translated by grivna1726 is that of a Masonic order. Whoops! Thank you for the correction. I don't know much about Freemasonry, but I do know that the Catholic Church has long been hostile toward it. I thought (incorrectly?) that the Orthodox Church held a similar view. If so, then the use of a Masonic motto on the coinage might have generated considerable antipathy toward Paul. To the best of my knowledge, the motto does not seem to be used on the coins/medals of any other ruler before or after Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarjock Posted November 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 I will definitely be holding on to this one. It has some interesting history. I think I'm becomming hooked already. I will be posting a few more coins soon. Thanks for your responses. It is nice to finally learn about this coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Whoops! Thank you for the correction. I don't know much about Freemasonry, but I do know that the Catholic Church has long been hostile toward it. I thought (incorrectly?) that the Orthodox Church held a similar view. If so, then the use of a Masonic motto on the coinage might have generated considerable antipathy toward Paul. To the best of my knowledge, the motto does not seem to be used on the coins/medals of any other ruler before or after Paul. Russian Orthodox church was under the control of the monarch. Same as Byzantium, where the emperor was also the head of church. So as long as freemasonry was supported by the Tsar, they had few problems, even if the clergy did not like them. It seems that Alexander I allowed freemasonry to go on. But Nickolas I, blamed them for the Decembrist uprising, and outlawed all secret societies, including freemasons. Although, the wings down eagle design is sometimes referred to these days as the Masonic eagle. But I’m not sure if that is accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Russian Orthodox church was under the control of the monarch. Same as Byzantium, where the emperor was also the head of church. So as long as freemasonry was supported by the Tsar, they had few problems, even if the clergy did not like them. Was this a result of the reforms of Peter I? If I remember correctly, in Peter's time, the Church was essentially a State within the State, and Peter wanted to bring it to heel so that it would not be an obstacle to his goals. Becoming head of the Church would solve that problem. Although, the wings down eagle design is sometimes referred to these days as the Masonic eagle. But I’m not sure if that is accurate. I don't know either and don't know how it got that name. Did Masons use an eagle? I have seen a square and compass used as Masonic symbols, but not an eagle. It seems unlikely that Nicolas I would ban the organization, but then approve its symbol on the coinage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 I will definitely be holding on to this one. It has some interesting history. I think I'm becomming hooked already. I will be posting a few more coins soon. Thanks for your responses. It is nice to finally learn about this coin. You are welcome. Russian coins are fascinating and very addictive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 The other side, with the inscription inside the cartouche, is a religious inscription. I am not certain of the exact translation, but I think it means something like "Not unto us, Not unto us, but unto Thy Will" and is apparently taken from the Russian Orthodox liturgy. It seems this is from Psalm 115:1 in the Bible which says Not to us, O LORD, not to us but to your name be the glory, because of your love and faithfulness. So it seems the translation should probably be "Not unto us, Not unto us, but unto Thy Name" rather than "Thy Will" as I originally suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Did Masons use an eagle? I have seen a square and compass used as Masonic symbols, but not an eagle. I have seen the "wings down" double headed eagle in masonic orders, so it is indeed a masonic symbol. There are several various masonic "rights" or branches of freemasonry, and within these rights, there are many "degrees" or ranks. I believe this eagle is specific to one of them, but i can not recall which, or its meaning. I look around for more info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 I have seen the "wings down" double headed eagle in masonic orders, so it is indeed a masonic symbol. There are several various masonic "rights" or branches of freemasonry, and within these rights, there are many "degrees" or ranks. I believe this eagle is specific to one of them, but i can not recall which, or its meaning. I look around for more info. Thank you, squirrel. I just found this: Eagle of Lagash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 found this page.... interesting reading, and just the tip of the iceberg on the topic, it looks like. Not sure about the Nicholas I masonic connection, and the origin of the wings down eagle on Russian coinage. Im sure there is a good story there. anyone? http://www.masonicdictionary.com/doubleeagle.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Two headed eagles are not uncommon in heraldics. The Russian one was adopted from the Byzantine version, as Ivan III was married to Sophia Poleologue, who was the daughter of the Byzantine emperor. The eagle was the symbol that Ivan III needed to gather russian princedoms under Moscow's control (added legitimacy). From what I've seen the original versions of the eagle had down pointing wings. Just think of the Aleksei Mikhailovich rouble. So I'm not convinced that it is necessarily a link to masonry. What I find strange about the 1826-31 eagle, is what the heck is he holding? What happened to the traditional Orb and Scepter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Here's some IMHO definite masonic symbolism on a Russian medallion: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Also, the wings down eagle first appeared on the gold 5 ruble of Alexander I, (but not on any silver or copper). Perhaps Nicholas I simply continued the stylistic trend of the new eagle design, without regard to the symbolism of its adaptation by Alexender, or those who encouraged its continuation were mason's, but did not disclose this information to Nicholas. It was, after all, a secret society! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 What I find strange about the 1826-31 eagle, is what the heck is he holding? What happened to the traditional Orb and Scepter? Good question. What is that? Lightning bolts and wreath? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Also, the wings down eagle first appeared on the gold 5 ruble of Alexander I, (but not on any silver or copper). Perhaps Nicholas I simply continued the stylistic trend of the new eagle design, without regard to the symbolism of its adaptation by Alexender, or those who encouraged its continuation were mason's, but did not disclose this information to Nicholas. It was, after all, a secret society! Alexander I had a reputation as a mystic. Was he also a mason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Here's some IMHO definite masonic symbolism on a Russian medallion: That certainly looks familiar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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