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1841 Gold Wedding Rouble


workingatit
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Hello All,

 

I am new here but I have been doing coins for 50 years and professionally for over 35.

 

I acquired this medal as part of a collection in the early part of this year. I placed it in auction and it sold but was returned due to an opinion from NGC that it was questionable. They pointed out several points:

"The angles of the wings seemed incomplete compared to the silver coins of the same dies"

"Strange die bulge at 9 o'clock on the reverse just to the outside of the flower stalk"

"horizontal die spikes on the truncation of the necks of both busts"

"highly unusual 'fabric'"

And finally, "seen plain edge family roubles struck in gold but never a reeded edge type."

 

I don't know enough to argue these points individually.

But,

As I understand it, this was not an expensive item until several years ago. This item comes from a collection that I am 95% sure was put together prior to 1970.

 

Assuming that is correct, why would someone make dies and then strike one piece? Why would they strike a reeded edge medal when the others all seemed to be plain edge? Are there other reeded edge wedding roubles to compare this to? Is anyone aware of a fake one?

 

I am looking to be convinced one way or the other. I have no problem destroying fake coins but the jury is still out on this and my gut keeps telling me that it is real.

 

I am interested in any opinions. Please note that the medal has definitely been cleaned and has hairlines.

 

http://www.stacks.com/lotdetail.aspx?lsid=...00112734#photos

When I get it back I will provide better photos/scans if anyone has an interest.

 

Thanks,

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Hello All,

I am new here but I have been doing coins for 50 years and professionally for over 35.

I acquired this medal as part of a collection in the early part of this year. I placed it in auction and it sold but was returned due to an opinion from NGC that it was questionable. They pointed out several points:

"The angles of the wings seemed incomplete compared to the silver coins of the same dies"

"Strange die bulge at 9 o'clock on the reverse just to the outside of the flower stalk"

"horizontal die spikes on the truncation of the necks of both busts"

"highly unusual 'fabric'"

And finally, "seen plain edge family roubles struck in gold but never a reeded edge type."

I don't know enough to argue these points individually. But, As I understand it, this was not an expensive item until several years ago. This item comes from a collection that I am 95% sure was put together prior to 1970.

Assuming that is correct, why would someone make dies and then strike one piece? Why would they strike a reeded edge medal when the others all seemed to be plain edge? Are there other reeded edge wedding roubles to compare this to? Is anyone aware of a fake one?

I am looking to be convinced one way or the other. I have no problem destroying fake coins but the jury is still out on this and my gut keeps telling me that it is real. I am interested in any opinions. Please note that the medal has definitely been cleaned and has hairlines.

http://www.stacks.com/lotdetail.aspx?lsid=...00112734#photos

When I get it back I will provide better photos/scans if anyone has an interest.

Thanks,

I have photographs of 8 additional pieces using these same dies but the others are of silver,

not gold.

 

RWJ

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I have examined 6 sets of photos (thank you Julian for your four sets) of the silver medal and the one thing that strikes me is how strong the details are in those dies. The dies for the gold one I own appear to have been polished heavily. The details in the angel's wing are definitely gone and replaced with a small slivers of polished surfaces. Could this be a later restrike from reworked dies or an out and out fake?

Thanks

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I have examined 6 sets of photos (thank you Julian for your four sets) of the silver medal and the one thing that strikes me is how strong the details are in those dies. The dies for the gold one I own appear to have been polished heavily. The details in the angel's wing are definitely gone and replaced with a small slivers of polished surfaces. Could this be a later restrike from reworked dies or an out and out fake?

Thanks

 

one of the signs of the dies copied from the original coin using modern metalworking equipment is the loss of depth, which causes loss of shallow design elements... I would think that gold mdals would be struck using fresh dies.

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I have examined 6 sets of photos (thank you Julian for your four sets) of the silver medal and the one thing that strikes me is how strong the details are in those dies. The dies for the gold one I own appear to have been polished heavily. The details in the angel's wing are definitely gone and replaced with a small slivers of polished surfaces. Could this be a later restrike from reworked dies or an out and out fake?

Thanks

Dies were commonly ground down to remove minor imperfections. It may also

be that the dies were heavily polished for a proof strike and a certain amount of

metal was removed in the process.

 

RWJ

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I have examined 6 sets of photos (thank you Julian for your four sets) of the silver medal and the one thing that strikes me is how strong the details are in those dies. The dies for the gold one I own appear to have been polished heavily. The details in the angel's wing are definitely gone and replaced with a small slivers of polished surfaces. Could this be a later restrike from reworked dies or an out and out fake?

Thanks

 

There were newer dies of this coin/medal. Same exact design, but they had mintmasters initials HI. Allegedly struck for 10th wedding anniversary.

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You can only authenticate this piece now at Russian State Historical Museum in Moscow. Their verdict on authenticity or non authenticity of this piece will be final.

 

Regards,

WCO

 

Thank you for this information. Do you know how you go about contacting them or making arrangements to ship them an item for authentication?

 

Thanks,

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