Jump to content
CoinPeople.com

Can you tell me what this is?


whippy
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hi, folks.

 

A freind of mine found this in the ocean and wasn't sure if it was a real russian coin or a fake russion coin. I could not find aything with this exact date on it but aI id fine a similar coin with the 1833 date. This one has 1817 on it.

 

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g164/Bobbie0115/img023.jpg

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g164/Bobbie0115/img024.jpg

 

Thank you,

 

Whips

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi and welcome to coinpeople. :ninja:

 

It does look like a Russian 1 ruble but it looks odd. As far as I am aware, the "17" in the date 1817 does not look normal and I am guessing that either it's altered or it's not genuine. However do wait for other people's opinion.

I think it is genuine but the figure 7 in the date has been altered by an engraver

after the coin left the mint. Whether the coin was originally 1817 is hard to say

but it is likely the case.

 

RWJ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The 1817 rouble discussed in this thread is now on eBay:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=330281313944

 

The BIN price is $150 and the seller estimates its value at $250. Where the $250

figure comes from is not stated. The seller also does not mention that the piece

has been re-engraved at the date.

 

RWJ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Will report for fraud

 

Fraud!? A bit harsh IMHO. The coin is genuine, pictures are provided for buyers. Seems just a bit of clumsy marketing.

 

I do have a question. I don't know that much about roubles, but the first edition of Usoupov (1995) lists about 8 different variations of the 7, not sure if this is one of them. Maybe this is the 9th. Also, could not the bottom of the 7 (the part that looks a bit odd to me) be caused by some dirt in the die?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fraud!? A bit harsh IMHO. The coin is genuine, pictures are provided for buyers. Seems just a bit of clumsy marketing.

 

I do have a question. I don't know that much about roubles, but the first edition of Usoupov (1995) lists about 8 different variations of the 7, not sure if this is one of them. Maybe this is the 9th. Also, could not the bottom of the 7 (the part that looks a bit odd to me) be caused by some dirt in the die?

 

 

+1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alex, I wouldn't have bothered about this auction if the seller didn't bother to ask opinions about the coin he's selling. By choosing to ignore and warn buyers about possible counterfeit aspect of the coin he's selling, how much more different is it than a fraud?

 

Forgive me Gxseries, but it looks like the last post the seller read was by Mr. Julian - "I think it is genuine". So it seems to me that the seller left with that impression. With all the horrible fraud going on on eBay, this incident seems to be within my tolerance limits.

 

Also, I would like to present the date on my 1817 rouble. It has a very week date :ninja: But looks similar to the one presented here:

1817.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alex, that's the point. Why choose to pick only the positive comments and censor out the negative aspects? Maximum profit of course. Sure the seller couldn't have trust us but can easily trust to pick the top of the cream to his benefit.

 

I don't quite agree your coin is anything similar to what the seller has Alex. The position of number 8 seems to be in a lower position from the rest of the digits. The position of the mintmaster is quite off as well. I don't remember seeing the letter "C" being so close to the claw.

 

At bare minimum level, I believe there is warning in this forum that the year could have been re-engraved. Sure, there can be a possibility that some dates were re-engraved to make some details more bold. I've seen a few worn Paul I ruble biblical text re-engraved to make the text more prominent. I actually think I do own a couple of them somewhere. Putting that aside, why is that aspect not listed in the auction? Why bother asking us in the first place? I'll rather see sellers selling counterfeit coins and be ignorant about it instead of choosing to ignore experts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...it looks like the last post the seller read was by Mr. Julian - "I think it is genuine". So it seems to me that the seller left with that impression.

 

RWJ's exact words were "I think it is genuine but the figure 7 in the date has been altered by an engraver

after the coin left the mint.".

 

That sentence seems clear and unambiguous to me. I'm not sure how it could be misunderstood.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alex, that's the point. Why choose to pick only the positive comments and censor out the negative aspects? Maximum profit of course. Sure the seller couldn't have trust us but can easily trust to pick the top of the cream to his benefit.

 

I don't quite agree your coin is anything similar to what the seller has Alex. The position of number 8 seems to be in a lower position from the rest of the digits. The position of the mintmaster is quite off as well. I don't remember seeing the letter "C" being so close to the claw.

 

At bare minimum level, I believe there is warning in this forum that the year could have been re-engraved. Sure, there can be a possibility that some dates were re-engraved to make some details more bold. I've seen a few worn Paul I ruble biblical text re-engraved to make the text more prominent. I actually think I do own a couple of them somewhere. Putting that aside, why is that aspect not listed in the auction? Why bother asking us in the first place? I'll rather see sellers selling counterfeit coins and be ignorant about it instead of choosing to ignore experts.

 

 

I do not mean to be this particular seller's advocate. But I do believe that this coin is genuine. I can't say if the date has been reengraved, but Mr. Jullian is an expert in silver coinage, and chooses his words carefully, so I will take it on his authority.

 

As I now know, mostly from reading posts on this forum, the letters were punched in by hand onto each die. 1817 has a massive production of roubles, many dies were made (hundreds?). Hence, variations in level and spacing of characters is also measured in (hundreds?).

 

What I was alluding to with my photo, was the shape of the 7, which IMHO is done with a similar punch as the coin presented earlier. And quite different from this amazing coin :ninja: :

 

http://www.numismat.ru/cgi-bin/cavid.cgi?i...-2-1&te=jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ultimately, what most people would care is the value / authenticity of their coin. Sure, there are people willing to pay for UNC, XF, VF, salvaged, plugged, holed, damaged and even counterfeit as long as the buyer and seller BOTH agree to a price. Transaction is considered to be complete.

 

The REAL problem to all buying / selling issue is that either the seller or buyer assumes too much and tries to push the responsibility around. A buyer might assume that the seller knows what he is selling and trusts him. The seller really has no clue what he is selling or claims that he has no knowledge tries to leave responsibility on the hands of the buyer. Responsibility gets thrown about. In this particular situation, the seller did ask for advice from this forum and it happened that Julian, one of the most respectable writers in Russian Numismatics has a stronger voice than the majority of us. To me, re-engraving is nothing but damage. Does "possible alteration" affect the value of a coin? Yes, dramatically. I find it very disturbing that a seller can choose to pick the best part of an expert's opinion and omit anything that can have a negative impact of what he intends to sell. I don't see why no one sees this as disturbing. It might be lucky that the seller chose not to quote coinpeople otherwise situation would been a lot more dramatic.

 

Put that aside, that probably might go into seller ethics and more discussion of it will be fruitless. Let's discuss if it is a possible alteration or not.

 

The main reason why I said it's re-engraved is because I have never seen a "7" with a slanted sharp end. So far with the digit 7 that I have seen, all of them have a round bottom. The medal and moneti auction picture illustrates a typical 7 that I have seen. While I do not have a 1817 ruble, I have a poltina 1817 and it has a similar 7. Can someone else find a similar example of a 7 with such slanted sharp end?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

we are too quick to pronounce good coins fakes or to find reengraving where there is possibly none. Same as with 1794 polushka that I bought, and which was discussed here previously. I know that it is always prudent to err on the side of caution, but...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I must admit surprise at this kind of 7. I checked about 20 pieces of 1817 (copper and silver) in

my database and all had the curved end to the 7. One would think that with this many examples

the odd 7 would show up.

 

RWJ

I have over 90 1817 roubles in my database. I find six with a different last 7.

 

 

 

 

 

(2 more to follow)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...