whippy Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Hi, folks. A freind of mine found this in the ocean and wasn't sure if it was a real russian coin or a fake russion coin. I could not find aything with this exact date on it but aI id fine a similar coin with the 1833 date. This one has 1817 on it. http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g164/Bobbie0115/img023.jpg http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g164/Bobbie0115/img024.jpg Thank you, Whips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Hi and welcome to coinpeople. It does look like a Russian 1 ruble but it looks odd. As far as I am aware, the "17" in the date 1817 does not look normal and I am guessing that either it's altered or it's not genuine. However do wait for other people's opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Hi and welcome to coinpeople. It does look like a Russian 1 ruble but it looks odd. As far as I am aware, the "17" in the date 1817 does not look normal and I am guessing that either it's altered or it's not genuine. However do wait for other people's opinion. I think it is genuine but the figure 7 in the date has been altered by an engraver after the coin left the mint. Whether the coin was originally 1817 is hard to say but it is likely the case. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whippy Posted October 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Thank you very much. The informatiom is greatly appreciated. I amazed at what people know these days. Coolwhips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Here is one link of what an original 1817 ruble looks like: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=250299231276 As you can see, the figure 7 is quite different. Not too sure why that is done as none of the years (1810-1819) are particularly rare under that mintmaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 The 1817 rouble discussed in this thread is now on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=330281313944 The BIN price is $150 and the seller estimates its value at $250. Where the $250 figure comes from is not stated. The seller also does not mention that the piece has been re-engraved at the date. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 Will report for fraud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Will report for fraud Fraud!? A bit harsh IMHO. The coin is genuine, pictures are provided for buyers. Seems just a bit of clumsy marketing. I do have a question. I don't know that much about roubles, but the first edition of Usoupov (1995) lists about 8 different variations of the 7, not sure if this is one of them. Maybe this is the 9th. Also, could not the bottom of the 7 (the part that looks a bit odd to me) be caused by some dirt in the die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Fraud!? A bit harsh IMHO. The coin is genuine, pictures are provided for buyers. Seems just a bit of clumsy marketing. I do have a question. I don't know that much about roubles, but the first edition of Usoupov (1995) lists about 8 different variations of the 7, not sure if this is one of them. Maybe this is the 9th. Also, could not the bottom of the 7 (the part that looks a bit odd to me) be caused by some dirt in the die? +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Alex, I wouldn't have bothered about this auction if the seller didn't bother to ask opinions about the coin he's selling. By choosing to ignore and warn buyers about possible counterfeit aspect of the coin he's selling, how much more different is it than a fraud? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Alex, I wouldn't have bothered about this auction if the seller didn't bother to ask opinions about the coin he's selling. By choosing to ignore and warn buyers about possible counterfeit aspect of the coin he's selling, how much more different is it than a fraud? Forgive me Gxseries, but it looks like the last post the seller read was by Mr. Julian - "I think it is genuine". So it seems to me that the seller left with that impression. With all the horrible fraud going on on eBay, this incident seems to be within my tolerance limits. Also, I would like to present the date on my 1817 rouble. It has a very week date But looks similar to the one presented here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Alex, that's the point. Why choose to pick only the positive comments and censor out the negative aspects? Maximum profit of course. Sure the seller couldn't have trust us but can easily trust to pick the top of the cream to his benefit. I don't quite agree your coin is anything similar to what the seller has Alex. The position of number 8 seems to be in a lower position from the rest of the digits. The position of the mintmaster is quite off as well. I don't remember seeing the letter "C" being so close to the claw. At bare minimum level, I believe there is warning in this forum that the year could have been re-engraved. Sure, there can be a possibility that some dates were re-engraved to make some details more bold. I've seen a few worn Paul I ruble biblical text re-engraved to make the text more prominent. I actually think I do own a couple of them somewhere. Putting that aside, why is that aspect not listed in the auction? Why bother asking us in the first place? I'll rather see sellers selling counterfeit coins and be ignorant about it instead of choosing to ignore experts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 ...it looks like the last post the seller read was by Mr. Julian - "I think it is genuine". So it seems to me that the seller left with that impression. RWJ's exact words were "I think it is genuine but the figure 7 in the date has been altered by an engraver after the coin left the mint.". That sentence seems clear and unambiguous to me. I'm not sure how it could be misunderstood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Alex, that's the point. Why choose to pick only the positive comments and censor out the negative aspects? Maximum profit of course. Sure the seller couldn't have trust us but can easily trust to pick the top of the cream to his benefit. I don't quite agree your coin is anything similar to what the seller has Alex. The position of number 8 seems to be in a lower position from the rest of the digits. The position of the mintmaster is quite off as well. I don't remember seeing the letter "C" being so close to the claw. At bare minimum level, I believe there is warning in this forum that the year could have been re-engraved. Sure, there can be a possibility that some dates were re-engraved to make some details more bold. I've seen a few worn Paul I ruble biblical text re-engraved to make the text more prominent. I actually think I do own a couple of them somewhere. Putting that aside, why is that aspect not listed in the auction? Why bother asking us in the first place? I'll rather see sellers selling counterfeit coins and be ignorant about it instead of choosing to ignore experts. I do not mean to be this particular seller's advocate. But I do believe that this coin is genuine. I can't say if the date has been reengraved, but Mr. Jullian is an expert in silver coinage, and chooses his words carefully, so I will take it on his authority. As I now know, mostly from reading posts on this forum, the letters were punched in by hand onto each die. 1817 has a massive production of roubles, many dies were made (hundreds?). Hence, variations in level and spacing of characters is also measured in (hundreds?). What I was alluding to with my photo, was the shape of the 7, which IMHO is done with a similar punch as the coin presented earlier. And quite different from this amazing coin : http://www.numismat.ru/cgi-bin/cavid.cgi?i...-2-1&te=jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 ...this amazing coin : That is a spectacular example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Ultimately, what most people would care is the value / authenticity of their coin. Sure, there are people willing to pay for UNC, XF, VF, salvaged, plugged, holed, damaged and even counterfeit as long as the buyer and seller BOTH agree to a price. Transaction is considered to be complete. The REAL problem to all buying / selling issue is that either the seller or buyer assumes too much and tries to push the responsibility around. A buyer might assume that the seller knows what he is selling and trusts him. The seller really has no clue what he is selling or claims that he has no knowledge tries to leave responsibility on the hands of the buyer. Responsibility gets thrown about. In this particular situation, the seller did ask for advice from this forum and it happened that Julian, one of the most respectable writers in Russian Numismatics has a stronger voice than the majority of us. To me, re-engraving is nothing but damage. Does "possible alteration" affect the value of a coin? Yes, dramatically. I find it very disturbing that a seller can choose to pick the best part of an expert's opinion and omit anything that can have a negative impact of what he intends to sell. I don't see why no one sees this as disturbing. It might be lucky that the seller chose not to quote coinpeople otherwise situation would been a lot more dramatic. Put that aside, that probably might go into seller ethics and more discussion of it will be fruitless. Let's discuss if it is a possible alteration or not. The main reason why I said it's re-engraved is because I have never seen a "7" with a slanted sharp end. So far with the digit 7 that I have seen, all of them have a round bottom. The medal and moneti auction picture illustrates a typical 7 that I have seen. While I do not have a 1817 ruble, I have a poltina 1817 and it has a similar 7. Can someone else find a similar example of a 7 with such slanted sharp end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altyn Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Can someone else find a similar example of a 7 with such slanted sharp end? ...like this one? http://kopek.ws/cgi-bin/findcoin?i=141 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Thanks altyn, I'm proven to be terribly wrong. Illustration always help. I hereby retract my previous statement of a counterfeit and re-engraving coin and would like to apologize for the trouble I caused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 we are too quick to pronounce good coins fakes or to find reengraving where there is possibly none. Same as with 1794 polushka that I bought, and which was discussed here previously. I know that it is always prudent to err on the side of caution, but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 we are too quick to pronounce good coins fakes or to find reengraving where there is possibly none. Same as with 1794 polushka that I bought, and which was discussed here previously. I know that it is always prudent to err on the side of caution, but... +1 And thank you Altyn for finding that coin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 ...like this one?http://kopek.ws/cgi-bin/findcoin?i=141 I must admit surprise at this kind of 7. I checked about 20 pieces of 1817 (copper and silver) in my database and all had the curved end to the 7. One would think that with this many examples the odd 7 would show up. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Russian coins forum denies theory of probability itself. It’s almost always wrong, no matter what is the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 I must admit surprise at this kind of 7. I checked about 20 pieces of 1817 (copper and silver) inmy database and all had the curved end to the 7. One would think that with this many examples the odd 7 would show up. RWJ I have over 90 1817 roubles in my database. I find six with a different last 7. (2 more to follow) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Haven't yet checked the 42 1817 Poltinas I have images for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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