alexbq2 Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 They were 5 kopeks (copper) coins, not 5 roubles (gold) coins. They were struck in 1788 in Avesta under the Swedish king Gustav III for use by his troops in Russia. Known dates of the Swedish forgeries are 1764, 1778 and 1787. I don't know why so few have survived. Maybe one of the copper specialists here can provide a better answer. Well, I don't think the Swedes ever got a chance to use them. They never managed to land troops in Russia, so I'd guess most of the coins were reminted into something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Well, I don't think the Swedes ever got a chance to use them. They never managed to land troops in Russia, so I'd guess most of the coins were reminted into something else. That sounds reasonable, but if that is the case, then I would expect them to appear in high grade. I haven't done a survey of conditions, but I think the ones I have seen offered over the years have been in circulated grades. I think I would probably remember one that showed up in EF or better, but I don't recall ever seeing such a coin (but I am not a copper specialist and know far less about regular issue 18th century copper coins than others here). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 That sounds reasonable, but if that is the case, then I would expect them to appear in high grade. I haven't done a survey of conditions, but I think the ones I have seen offered over the years have been in circulated grades. I think I would probably remember one that showed up in EF or better, but I don't recall ever seeing such a coin (but I am not a copper specialist and know far less about regular issue 18th century copper coins than others here). I'd guess that sums in these coins were distributed to the treasury officers with the fleet, and not all were returned to the crown at the end of the campaign - thus probably entered circulation as copper currency. Just a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 I'd guess that sums in these coins were distributed to the treasury officers with the fleet, and not all were returned to the crown at the end of the campaign - thus probably entered circulation as copper currency. Just a guess. You might be right, although it seems like a big risk to take for a relatively small reward. On the other hand, people often engage in needlessly risky behavior and make irrational decisions, so the risk:reward ratio might not be as significant as it seems at first glance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 You might be right, although it seems like a big risk to take for a relatively small reward. On the other hand, people often engage in needlessly risky behavior and make irrational decisions, so the risk:reward ratio might not be as significant as it seems at first glance. I would not necessarily imply theft. An impression that I got from the Patrik O'Brien's novels, is that a captain of a ship is a fairly autonomous entity. There were a few engagements between Swedish and Russian fleets, if one of the Swedish ships needed supplies or repair materials they could have made a pit stop somewhere along the Russian coast and payed in full or in part with the Avesta coins. In case of such an isolated eevent, only a small quantity would have been released into the circulation. An even more fun theory, a ship sunk and the treasure chest floated ashore! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 I would not necessarily imply theft. An impression that I got from the Patrik O'Brien's novels, is that a captain of a ship is a fairly autonomous entity. There were a few engagements between Swedish and Russian fleets, if one of the Swedish ships needed supplies or repair materials they could have made a pit stop somewhere along the Russian coast and payed in full or in part with the Avesta coins. In case of such an isolated eevent, only a small quantity would have been released into the circulation. I see what you mean now. That would be consistent with the coins' intended purpose as described by Brekke (p.160). Brekke quotes Catherine II's secretary's diary: "Count Pushkin has sent us some 5 kopek pieces that the Swedes have used to pay Russian workers in the war zone. The Swedes say that they have taken them as prize on Russian ships, but we feel that they are forgeries, although they are as good as ours." Brekke's remarks seem to suggest that the majority of the coins have been found in collections in Sweden (rather than in Russia), which seems to support your suggestion that relatively few of them were distributed in Russia or in the Russian frontier region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted October 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 That sounds reasonable, but if that is the case, then I would expect them to appear in high grade. I haven't done a survey of conditions, but I think the ones I have seen offered over the years have been in circulated grades. I think I would probably remember one that showed up in EF or better, but I don't recall ever seeing such a coin (but I am not a copper specialist and know far less about regular issue 18th century copper coins than others here). Agreed. They're almost always in approximately F condition. I think I've only seen a couple that may be VF. I've seen others much worse. Mine (1787) is also in the F category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Agreed. They're almost always in approximately F condition. I think I've only seen a couple that may be VF. I've seen others much worse. Mine (1787) is also in the F category. That suggests that those Avesta coins that entered circulation tended to stay there undetected for long periods. Considering normal attrition rates, that suggests there may have been more than just a handful that entered circulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 There is still a chance to own a 1764 Avesta. ANOTHER one is for sale. Thomas Hoilland Sonsteby Collection catalog arrived today. Cataloger states "Brekkke knows of only 3 coins in private collections and 2 in museum collections" http://www.thauctions.com/default.aspx?doc...;s=&c1=1001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 There is still a chance to own a 1764 Avesta. ANOTHER one is for sale. Thomas Hoilland Sonsteby Collection catalog arrived today. Cataloger states "Brekkke knows of only 3 coins in private collections and 2 in museum collections" http://www.thauctions.com/default.aspx?doc...;s=&c1=1001 They also have a 1778, which is also a very rare coin. With all 1764's that showed up, I wonder if 1778 should not be considered as rare now as 1764. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorbatsuk Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 They also have a 1778, which is also a very rare coin. With all 1764's that showed up, I wonder if 1778 should not be considered as rare now as 1764. 1764 is rarest date, I`ve been interested of Catherine II 5 kopeks almost 10 years. And Kuenker (lot.8295) was the first time I saw 1764 on sale. I still have not seen 1787 without mintmark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted October 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 1764 is rarest date, I`ve been interested of Catherine II 5 kopeks almost 10 years. AndKuenker (lot.8295) was the first time I saw 1764 on sale. I still have not seen 1787 without mintmark. This is the example from the Brekke sale (1993). Lot 1507, $2,600. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted November 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 There is still a chance to own a 1764 Avesta. ANOTHER one is for sale. Thomas Hoilland Sonsteby Collection catalog arrived today. Cataloger states "Brekkke knows of only 3 coins in private collections and 2 in museum collections" http://www.thauctions.com/default.aspx?doc...;s=&c1=1001 Sold for around $76,000. A bargain compared to the $155,000 paid for the Kuenker coin one month earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 Sold for around $76,000. A bargain compared to the $155,000 paid for the Kuenker coin one month earlier. Looks more like some body trying collecting all 3 coins in one private hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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