Lipstick on a coin - it's still the same coin

[marv]

Here is an interesting metamorphisis and the world travels of an 1831 Rouble.

 

The story, at least where I pick it up, starts in the Hesselgesser Goldberg auction of June, 2000 @ $700: Click the link and find lot 5609 under session 7 (click session 7 and then click the first plus sign after Nicholas I to get there fast)

http://www.goldbergcoins.net/catalogarchiv...4/ancient.shtml

 

Fast forward seven years. We find the coin now in the Heritage auction of May, 2007 @ $7475 (realized 10 times its 2000 price in seven years. Who says that coins are not a good investment? (You have to log in to the Heritage site to see the close up pictures and prices realized - if you don't already have a login, you should. This site has lots of history and good pictures of coins.)

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?S...1779&src=pr

 

 

And finally, the coin has flown (pigs fly?) over the pond to Russia and is now appearing in the Alexander Auction of September 20 except now they are calling it "MS65" (I think it's flown its slab - pigs do fly!). And the estimate is $10,000 - 12,000!

http://www.adacoins.ru/detail.php?cid=3071&aid=10

 

Interestingly, in the picture on the Alexander site, you can't see all the scratches that the heritage picture so clearly shows and which are probably the reason that NGC graded it MS64 originally. I wonder what this rouble will bring? And of course, if it sells, it will be back home for good.

 

Now, don't get me wrong - I'm not referring to the coin itself as a "pig" in the sense of a "dog." (By the way, I like dogs and pigs, but I don't eat dogs.) It's a pretty coin. Just thought you might find the different ways it has been marketed and the various descriptions interesting.

 

Marv Finnley

[grivna1726]

Here is an interesting metamorphisis and the world travels of an 1831 Rouble.

 

The story, at least where I pick it up, starts in the Hesselgesser Goldberg auction of June, 2000 @ $700: Click the link and find lot 5609 under session 7 (click session 7 and then click the first plus sign after Nicholas I to get there fast)

http://www.goldbergcoins.net/catalogarchiv...4/ancient.shtml

 

Fast forward seven years. We find the coin now in the Heritage auction of May, 2007 @ $7475 (realized 10 times its 2000 price in seven years. Who says that coins are not a good investment? (You have to log in to the Heritage site to see the close up pictures and prices realized - if you don't already have a login, you should. This site has lots of history and good pictures of coins.)

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?S...1779&src=pr

And finally, the coin has flown (pigs fly?) over the pond to Russia and is now appearing in the Alexander Auction of September 20 except now they are calling it "MS65" (I think it's flown its slab - pigs do fly!). And the estimate is $10,000 - 12,000!

http://www.adacoins.ru/detail.php?cid=3071&aid=10

 

Interestingly, in the picture on the Alexander site, you can't see all the scratches that the heritage picture so clearly shows and which are probably the reason that NGC graded it MS64 originally. I wonder what this rouble will bring? And of course, if it sells, it will be back home for good.

 

Now, don't get me wrong - I'm not referring to the coin itself as a "pig" in the sense of a "dog." (By the way, I like dogs and pigs, but I don't eat dogs.) It's a pretty coin. Just thought you might find the different ways it has been marketed and the various descriptions interesting.

 

Marv Finnley

 

Interesting.

 

Isn't the coin is back home for good once it enters Russian territory (unless the dealer has some special exemption to the law), whether it sells or not?

 

Will it sell at this level? I might be wrong, but I think it probably will. It's an exceptionally nice coin, finding another like it will not be easy, and the dollar isn't what it used to be.

[marv]

It is a nice coin; any mint state coin, i.e., not a "collector coin" such as a proof or commemorative, that comes out of the early 19th century in that state of preservation is something of a small miracle. What intrigued me was how different the coin looks in each picture. At first I wasn't even sure that all three pictures depicted the same coin until I noticed the kind of horizontal mark on the reverse starting above and between the "O" and "T" and extending over the "T" of "ZOLOTN". This can be seen on all three pictures. There is also an untoned small circle on the obverse below the eagle's right talon (looking at it from the observer's point of view) that shows up on both the 2000 and the current sales but is difficult to see in the Heritage pictures. The way the coin is photographed makes it look very different in all three pictures.

 

It's clear that the "Russian Express" hadn't quite got a full head of steam yet in 2000, but by 2007, it was moving into high gear.

 

I don't think this is an isolated example where coins, purchased in the US, are now being sold in Russia where they are perceived to bring higher prices. It will be interesting to see whether, in this case, that holds true.

 

I don't know the answer to your question as to whether, if this coin is not sold, a non-Russian seller can get the coin back, or whether, once it is physically located within Russia, it must stay there regardless.

 

I will be watching carefully to see what this coin now brings, as I bought the magnificent Hesselgesser 1826 Wings Up rouble (NGC MS67) in a Superior 2004 sale. 1826 is a much rarer date in that series, and any mint state 67 coin from the 1820's is a wonderous accident. I doubt that there are many silver large denomination circulating coins from any country of that era in such well-preserved condition.

Marv Finnley

[grivna1726]

It is a nice coin; any mint state coin, i.e., not a "collector coin" such as a proof or commemorative, that comes out of the early 19th century in that state of preservation is something of a small miracle.

 

Agreed.

 

1826 is a much rarer date in that series, and any mint state 67 coin from the 1820's is a wonderous accident. I doubt that there are many silver large denomination circulating coins from any country of that era in such well-preserved condition.

 

Also agreed. Your 1826 rouble is a "wonder coin". I have never seen a finer circulation strike of this type than yours (maybe there's one in a Russian museum somewhere?).

[sturzny]

If the prices from Jim Elmen's recent sales are any indication, they will get the estimate easily. Seems most any ruble from that period in something approximating mint state condition is bringing 5 figures.

[bobh]

I wonder what these will go for?

 

1830 rouble, Künker auction

1831 rouble, Künker auction

[squirrel]

I wonder what these will go for?

 

1830 rouble, Künker auction

1831 rouble, Künker auction

 

good question. no doubt more than the "estimates"

It will be iteresting to see how the shakeup in the russian economy plays out in auction results.

[shtirlic]

What do you think, what is the grade for this coin?

Thx

 

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7154/1rub1828fg2.jpg

[bobh]

What do you think, what is the grade for this coin?

Thx

 

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7154/1rub1828fg2.jpg

Why do you ask?

 

Sometimes people will post this question "what is the grade for this coin?" just so they can make a decision about whether to pay for a coin they have already bid on.

 

Needless to say, we don't answer that kind of question.

[shtirlic]

I'm asking as i don't have any experience in grading by the Sheldon scale, as you can't find too many of them in Europe

So for me not too much difference between AU58 and for example MS63

Please pay attention that i'm not asking about the price, just wondering what could the grade for it

But ok, if you are not answering such questions i'm fine with it

 

and BTW, do you really think if i decide to buy such coin before paying for it i will ask for "numbers" on forum?

Usually people, me at least, buy coins because they like them and not because of numbers from NGC

But ok, this issue was discussed already many times ...

[bobh]

I'm asking as i don't have any experience in grading by the Sheldon scale, as you can't find too many of them in Europe

So for me not too much difference between AU58 and for example MS63

Please pay attention that i'm not asking about the price, just wondering what could the grade for it

But ok, if you are not answering such questions i'm fine with it

 

and BTW, do you really think if i decide to buy such coin before paying for it i will ask for "numbers" on forum?

Usually people, me at least, buy coins because they like them and not because of numbers from NGC

But ok, this issue was discussed already many times ...

OK, I am glad that you aren't looking for "numbers".

 

I would say MS details, but it looks like it may have been cleaned sometime ago.

[marv]

To me it looks like there is definite slight wear on the highest points of the obverse including St. George (but that is often weakly struck) and eagle's right talon (or left, looking at the coin) as well as the ribbon; on the reverse, there does appear to be light wear on many of the leaves in the wreath, although again, this could be striking weakness. With a coin like this, one must be able to see it in hand to judge the all important presence of luster on the high points especially. Slight wear manifests itself as an absence of luster. It's also important to see the coin surfaces up closely. An AU coin is almost always much more heavily marked than an uncirc coin, as it has seen use. An uncirc weakly struck coin should still have abundant luster even on the flat areas. I would go AU on this coin.

[shtirlic]

thanks for detail explanation. The coin was scaned in holder, in my opinion all the weacknesses are from strike, i can't see in the fields any signs for circulation

thks again

[sturzny]

If you prefer European-style grading, how about "fast vz (vorzuglich)"? That equates roughly to AU or even a slightly scruffy UNC.

[marv]

And finally, the coin has flown (pigs fly?) over the pond to Russia and is now appearing in the Alexander Auction of September 20 except now they are calling it "MS65" (I think it's flown its slab - pigs do fly!). And the estimate is $10,000 - 12,000!

http://www.adacoins.ru/detail.php?cid=3071&aid=10

 

Interestingly, in the picture on the Alexander site, you can't see all the scratches that the heritage picture so clearly shows and which are probably the reason that NGC graded it MS64 originally. I wonder what this rouble will bring? And of course, if it sells, it will be back home for good.

 

Marv Finnley

 

FYI, the coin now realized $11,000 plus juice (?). That's around 60% profit in a little over a year, and that's for a coin, removed from an NGC64 slab, and "regraded" by the auction house as a "65," with obvious scratches on it that weren't picked up in the Alexander auction picture (which emphasized the beautiful toning).

 

So tell me, is the market cooling? And, by the way, the 1830 Poltina right before this rouble, also in "65" went for $13,000, and the shield on this coin is a bit weakly struck.

 

Marv Finnley

[GHV]

FYI, the coin now realized $11,000 plus juice (?). That's around 60% profit in a little over a year, and that's for a coin, removed from an NGC64 slab, and "regraded" by the auction house as a "65," with obvious scratches on it that weren't picked up in the Alexander auction picture (which emphasized the beautiful toning).

 

So tell me, is the market cooling? And, by the way, the 1830 Poltina right before this rouble, also in "65" went for $13,000, and the shield on this coin is a bit weakly struck.

 

Marv Finnley

 

Hi,

 

I think market getting more hot, and its in Russia...

Check all actions coin prices, its crazy, i mean probably 15-20% (or more) more than 2-3 months ago.

If russian coin market goes UP, I'm sure will notice same "cooling" in US.

[WCO]

FYI, the coin now realized $11,000 plus juice (?). That's around 60% profit in a little over a year ...

 

So tell me, is the market cooling? ...

 

Marv Finnley

 

I heard a rumor that only about 20-25% of lots were actually sold on that auction, all the rest went unsold. Prices realized are made up to mask complete failure. Just rumors. But I think we may see this Ruble again for sale soon...

 

IMHO. Coin market of rare Russian coins is at the beginning of deep correction.

 

WCO

[marv]

I heard a rumor that only about 20-25% of lots were actually sold on that auction, all the rest went unsold. Prices realized are made up to mask complete failure. Just rumors. But I think we may see this Ruble again for sale soon...

 

IMHO. Coin market of rare Russian coins is at the beginning of deep correction.

 

WCO

 

So all those billionaires are broke now with oil at "only" $100/barrel? Perhaps they might figure that coins are a better investment than oil or stocks.

However, if you're right, the first coin I'm buying will be a family rouble, MS66, when it gets down to $500!

 

Marv Finnley

[savok]

Isn't the coin is back home for good once it enters Russian territory (unless the dealer has some special exemption to the law), whether it sells or not?

 

This point is a good one. I would really like to witness firsthand the process of Russia denying the exit of the coin on the grounds of "cultural heritage".

 

And then, I want to see EXACTLY what becomes of such a confiscated piece. Does it go home in the customs agent's pocket? does it become the property of his boss and form the collateral for a trade for a Porsche Cayenne? Does it go the Hermitage Numismatics department, where it (ooops) never gets catalogued and manages to find its way into the personal collection of one of the numismatic specialists (and subsequently said person begins showing up for their daily tea-drinking Hermitage grind in a Porsche Cayenne)...

 

I just really want to trace the journey of a confiscated piece of "cultural heritage."

[bobh]

So all those billionaires are broke now with oil at "only" $100/barrel? Perhaps they might figure that coins are a better investment than oil or stocks.

I think they had this figured out some time ago ... e.g. Viktor Vekselberg who bought the fabulous Forbes Fabergé collection (hey, that has a nice sound to it!) In the meantime, people with that kind of money have long since diversified their holdings. Mr. Vekselberg, for example, has been buying up shares in Swiss and Austrian companies during the last 5 years or so to the point that many people in those countries have raised some eyebrows.

 

Every time I am overbid on a Russian coin at an auction, I like to think it was Vekselberg, Berezowski or perhaps even President Putin himself who overbid me. (oops ... I suppose he's not President anymore ... well, doesn't really matter, since Mr. Medvedev is a "trained bear", so they say... )

 

However, if you're right, the first coin I'm buying will be a family rouble, MS66, when it gets down to $500!

 

Marv Finnley

And when was the last time a family rouble sold for $500?

[WCO]

So all those billionaires are broke now with oil at "only" $100/barrel? Perhaps they might figure that coins are a better investment than oil or stocks.

However, if you're right, the first coin I'm buying will be a family rouble, MS66, when it gets down to $500!

 

Marv Finnley

 

 

Why $500? Wait till it will be just $1. I am afraid that with all this financial crisis $500 soon will be able to buy just a cup of coffee and a donut.

 

WCO

[alexbq2]

This point is a good one. I would really like to witness firsthand the process of Russia denying the exit of the coin on the grounds of "cultural heritage".

 

Well, since you asked, I had the pleasure of witnessing the process of denying the export of the cultural heritage firsthand.

 

I left Russia all the way back in 1991 – actually it was still Soviet Union for a few months after I bailed. I was just starting high school at the time. A few years later (93 or 94), I visited Moscow. Those were the fun days. 1 dollar was worth a few thousand roubles or something, and everything was for sale. That was the time when I blundered into Imperial Russian coins. I really knew nothing of them, but I got a handful of old coppers (none rare but some nice looking) for 10 bucks. I bought a Peter the Great poltina for 16 (still can’t believe it is real, and it might not be…), bought a fake Paul I half poltina for about the same, and probably bought that Rylov&Soblin catalog that I rave about nostalgically.

 

Obviously, I had no notion of what I was buying, or that I may have difficulties leaving with it. But at Sherementievo (2) airport, the customs officers found these coins. Made a huge deal out of it. Caused my flight to be delayed (at least I did not miss it). They catalogued all of my coins, confiscated them, told me that they will store them for a couple of weeks (at my expense) and if no one picks them up they will be repossessed or something. Fortunately, my relatives did pick them up a couple of days later (and payed the storage fee), and when I visited a couple of years later I bought a few more and smuggled the whole lot through the customs at the same airport

[marv]

What do you think, what is the grade for this coin?

Thx

 

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7154/1rub1828fg2.jpg

 

You might take a look at this coin out of the forthcoming Gorny auction.

 

http://www.sixbid.com/nav.php?p=viewlot&am...72&lot=8569

 

It's graded EF (vorzüglich), and it looks much better than the coin in your link. This might be a bit conservative, but one has to yield to the cataloger who has the coin in hand as opposed to those of us only using a picture.

 

Marv Finnley

[grivna1726]

It's graded EF (vorzüglich), and it looks much better than the coin in your link.

Marv, are you thinking in terms of the details (i.e. sharpness of the strike)?

 

If so, then you might be comparing apples and oranges.

 

Shtirlic's coin is an 1828, but the auction coin is 1831.

 

IIRC, the dies were adjusted to bring out more detail in later dates. I think there's a thread about it here somewhere.

[shtirlic]

IIRC, the dies were adjusted to bring out more detail in later dates. I think there's a thread about it here somewhere.

 

Hi,

can you please provide a link? I don't remember such thread and actually can't find it

Thanks