1725 Griwna Coin Plate

[owl]

Hi!

 

 

Perhaps you´d like to take a look at a coin plate from Russia which my father left me 20 years ago. He told me that he literally dug it out at some place near Wolga river in Russia but I cannot tell much about it, so I hope you can help me!

 

As far as I know, these Grivnas were coined only between 1725 - 1726 and nowadays, there aren´t many to find. Then, fourty years later or so, some Grivnas were coined for collectioners only, those coins were called 'Nowodels' right?

 

I have made two pics:

 

 

 

 

Can you tell me if it is a novodel or a genuine one? Are these Grivnas, particularly the one I own of any value today?

 

 

Thank you in advance!

[grivna1726]

Hi!

Perhaps you´d like to take a look at a coin plate from Russia which my father left me 20 years ago. He told me that he literally dug it out at some place near Wolga river in Russia but I cannot tell much about it, so I hope you can help me!

 

As far as I know, these Grivnas were coined only between 1725 - 1726 and nowadays, there aren´t many to find. Then, fourty years later or so, some Grivnas were coined for collectioners only, those coins were called 'Nowodels' right?

 

I have made two pics:

Can you tell me if it is a novodel or a genuine one? Are these Grivnas, particularly the one I own of any value today?

Thank you in advance!

This is neither an original, nor a novodel.

 

It is not genuine.

 

It is a forgery.

[STEVE MOULDING]

This is neither an original, nor a novodel.

 

It is not genuine.

 

It is a forgery.

 

Agreed. Another "dug out of the ground" fake.

[owl]

This is neither an original, nor a novodel.

 

It is not genuine.

 

It is a forgery.

 

Oh, that´s a pity. Why do you think so? What´s the proof?

 

Now i´m quite disappointed, you know :-)

 

 

greetings

[grivna1726]

Oh, that´s a pity. Why do you think so? What´s the proof?

 

Now i´m quite disappointed, you know :-)

greetings

Welcome to coinpeople

 

I am sorry to tell you that the plate is a fake, but I have no doubt about that fact.

 

1725 exists only as patterns created using a screw press.

 

Business strikes were made 1726 & 1727.

 

Most Russian plate money offered (especially in online auctions) is fake.

 

The style of the stamps on your plate is all wrong. Here is a genuine original example for comparison:

 

Here is a genuine novodel (ex-Willy Fuchs collection), also for comparison:

[owl]

Thank you very much, grivna1726!

 

I appreciate the information you gave on the grivnas and of course the pics!

 

Although my coin seems to be a fake, it is a great memory. My dad died in ´91 and as my mother told me, he was quite proud of his grivna. Back then I lived in Moscow. Besides the grivna, my dad had two big books full of coins from the 18th and 19th century, as well as many soviet-union coins, olympic games 1980. He used to meet other collectors at some big coin club at metro station Paveletzkaya to exchange coins and stuff but he always had a trace of the grivna with him, never the grivna itself :-). He was afraid that someone would break in our flat to steal it.. When someone asked him where he had the trace from, he got it from 'distant relatives'. It is interesting that nobody said that it might be a fake, you know, back then in Russia. Apparently, there were even some collectors who deemed it to be highly valuable. Perhaps my dad showed it to the wrong people who didnt know much about plate money, thats why he kept believing in its genuineness.

 

Now I live in Germany and it seems there is noone who collect coins nowadays.

 

I just had a thought that my grivna could be some exceptional piece, considering its worn and stained appearance, the cleavages and scratches look as if they arise from many years of use or stocking in bad condition. The letters are not aligned properly, there is a difference in size between the single letters and the amount of stamp pressure seems to vary in some places during coinage. Just compare my grivna and the genuine novodel pic above, or even the genuine business grivna.

 

But an exceptional grivna is highly unlikely, right? :-) At least I would say that whoever made this fake, especially whenever it was coined, put some effort into it.

 

 

I just called my mother and asked her for details. She told me that my dad found the grivna in the tiny russian village Kalyasino in 1974 somewhere in the vicinity of Wolga river, as said, in the ruins of my great-great-great (get it? :-)) grandma´s shack that was located in the neighborhood of my great-grandma´s house. The shack obviously was built as part of a manor for Catherine´s II representatives (i think that´s the right word). And yes, my dad casually dug it out along with some other small coins. When he returned home after he had shown the trace to someone at the club, his hands were trembling. Apparently some people there told him that its some highly rare piece.

In any case, he dug out a fake grivna, which means that faking grivnas was common almost 300 years ago?

 

 

So that´s quite a little story, isn´t it?

 

Thank you again for the information. I have one more question: When did the first grivna fakes appear? Simultanously with the launch of the grivnas in 1926 or much later? Why would anyone fake a grivna from '1725' that could not exist because the first grivnas ever were coined in 1726?

 

 

greetings

 

Oleg

[grivna1726]

Thank you very much, grivna1726!

 

I appreciate the information you gave on the grivnas and of course the pics!

 

Although my coin seems to be a fake, it is a great memory. My dad died in ´91 and as my mother told me, he was quite proud of his grivna. Back then I lived in Moscow. Besides the grivna, my dad had two big books full of coins from the 18th and 19th century, as well as many soviet-union coins, olympic games 1980. He used to meet other collectors at some big coin club at metro station Paveletzkaya to exchange coins and stuff but he always had a trace of the grivna with him, never the grivna itself :-). He was afraid that someone would break in our flat to steal it.. When someone asked him where he had the trace from, he got it from 'distant relatives'. It is interesting that nobody said that it might be a fake, you know, back then in Russia. Apparently, there were even some collectors who deemed it to be highly valuable. Perhaps my dad showed it to the wrong people who didnt know much about plate money, thats why he kept believing in its genuineness.

 

Now I live in Germany and it seems there is noone who collect coins nowadays.

 

I just had a thought that my grivna could be some exceptional piece, considering its worn and stained appearance, the cleavages and scratches look as if they arise from many years of use or stocking in bad condition. The letters are not aligned properly, there is a difference in size between the single letters and the amount of stamp pressure seems to vary in some places during coinage. Just compare my grivna and the genuine novodel pic above, or even the genuine business grivna.

 

But an exceptional grivna is highly unlikely, right? :-) At least I would say that whoever made this fake, especially whenever it was coined, put some effort into it.

I just called my mother and asked her for details. She told me that my dad found the grivna in the tiny russian village Kalyasino in 1974 somewhere in the vicinity of Wolga river, as said, in the ruins of my great-great-great (get it? :-)) grandma´s shack that was located in the neighborhood of my great-grandma´s house. The shack obviously was built as part of a manor for Catherine´s II representatives (i think that´s the right word). And yes, my dad casually dug it out along with some other small coins. When he returned home after he had shown the trace to someone at the club, his hands were trembling. Apparently some people there told him that its some highly rare piece.

In any case, he dug out a fake grivna, which means that faking grivnas was common almost 300 years ago?

So that´s quite a little story, isn´t it?

 

Thank you again for the information. I have one more question: When did the first grivna fakes appear? Simultanously with the launch of the grivnas in 1926 or much later? Why would anyone fake a grivna from '1725' that could not exist because the first grivnas ever were coined in 1726?

greetings

 

Oleg

Hello Oleg,

 

I do not know when the first fake grivna plates were made. The novodels are scarce enough, but common compared to the originals. I think the novodels were probably made during the reign of Catherine II ("the Great") or possibly a bit later.

 

I do know that lot 833 of the massive Klingert collection, sold in 1910, was also a fake of the 1725 grivna plate. Klingert had 6 grivna plates (the other 5 were dated 1726). Of those five plates, only one (lot 835) is illustrated and it appears to be genuine (based on the picture).

 

Genuine plates are quite rare and even pictures of real ones were not very easy to find until the GM corpus was reprinted by Quarterman back in the 1970s. Even the Farouk collection had a fake one rouble plate.

 

I do not know who made your plate, or when, or how it came to be where your father found it. However, I am quite certain that it is not real and this can be easily established simply by comparing it with known genuine examples.

[lennysky]

Oleg, it is also possible that your father made-up the story that he dug-up the grivna to hide the fact that he paid someone for it. Money were scarce those days, so any significant money spent, were severely scrutinized by the wives. Sorry, it is certainly a fake.

 

Hello Oleg,

 

I do not know when the first fake grivna plates were made. The novodels are scarce enough, but common compared to the originals. I think the novodels were probably made during the reign of Catherine II ("the Great") or possibly a bit later.

 

I do know that lot 833 of the massive Klingert collection, sold in 1910, was also a fake of the 1725 grivna plate. Klingert had 6 grivna plates (the other 5 were dated 1726). Of those five plates, only one (lot 835) is illustrated and it appears to be genuine (based on the picture).

 

Genuine plates are quite rare and even pictures of real ones were not very easy to find until the GM corpus was reprinted by Quarterman back in the 1970s. Even the Farouk collection had a fake one rouble plate.

 

I do not know who made your plate, or when, or how it came to be where your father found it. However, I am quite certain that it is not real and this can be easily established simply by comparing it with known genuine examples.